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Cool. What if it turned out that in some places there is proof that what's going on is "promote X, because he is a man"... would you then fight against that wit

Cool. What if it turned out that in some places there is proof that what's going on is "promote X, because he is a man"... would you then fight against that with all your being?

4ad 10y ago
Of course I would. I strongly want injustice and discrimination to end in the world (which is why I am against affirmative action in the first place).
- jordanlev 10y ago
  As a developer, it seems pretty clear to me that there is implicit bias going on in our industry. I don't know how or why, but I don't believe that men are inherently better than women at the skills it takes to succeed, so I'm not sure what else would explain the discrepancy. So if my assumption is correct, then I want to ask your help (as someone who fights discrimination with all their being) -- what can I do to help correct this situation? Or perhaps my assumption that there is even bias in the first place is wrong?
  - 4ad 10y ago
    > As a developer, it seems pretty clear to me that there is implicit bias going on in our industry. It doesn't seem clear to me at all. I have seen and lived through, or had many close acquaintances who lived through many specific example of discrimination, including sexual discrimination (in both directions!) but I would not dream of generalising from them. Even if many, or most of them were of a truly appalling nature. Deep prejudice with very damaging effects; nothing subtle of subjective about them. All instances were very different in details, but all that could be deduce from it is that people abuse other people, news at 11. It's very tempting to pretend that assholes, or social darwinism, or ruthless capitalism are examples of class warfare, but usually they are not. That is not to say that everything is perfect the way it is. Certainly there are specific problems, some including specific groups that I would want addressed. > I don't know how or why, but I don't believe that men are inherently better than women at the skills it takes to succeed, so I'm not sure what else would explain the discrepancy. Emphasis mine. Why do you think "to succeed" means, or should mean the same thing to everyone as it does to you? You really think that people outside your socially-defined neighbourhood did not succeed? There are many ways to succeed, but success is something defined by each individual for himself. It has nothing to do with money, nothing to do with employment, and certainly nothing to do with the industry you are part of! Do I think it would be bad for women to succeed less than men in general? I think it would be, but I have no data whether it's true or not in western societies, nor have any way of measuring it, so the point is moot. What I do know, is that whatever the answer to that question is, it has nothing to do with women in tech. That is to say, that even if there's deep injustice going on with women in the western world (no disagreement that there are many societies where women are abused), the solution (or part of the solution) surely is not promoting them without merit in high-tech organizations.
    - jordanlev 10y ago
      I'm basing my assumption solely on the numbers... the vast majority of programmers are male, which can only mean either men are "better" at the job, or that some other factor is causing it. Since I don't believe men are necessarily better at it than women, then I'm assuming it's the "other factors". That's the bias I'm talking about. I don't know exactly what it is (surely a combination of factors), but there has to be some sort of cultural explanation for it if you don't subscribe to the notion that it's in the DNA. Bias doesn't necessarily mean discrimantion per se... it could be biased views of women themselves towards careers (which I think is what Rob Pike was getting at in this blog post... and hence that having more role models might offset this bias).

Cool. What if it turned out that in some places there is proof that what's going on is "promote X, because he is a man"... would you then fight against that with all your being?

4ad 10y ago

Of course I would. I strongly want injustice and discrimination to end in the world (which is why I am against affirmative action in the first place).

jordanlev 10y ago
As a developer, it seems pretty clear to me that there is implicit bias going on in our industry. I don't know how or why, but I don't believe that men are inherently better than women at the skills it takes to succeed, so I'm not sure what else would explain the discrepancy. So if my assumption is correct, then I want to ask your help (as someone who fights discrimination with all their being) -- what can I do to help correct this situation? Or perhaps my assumption that there is even bias in the first place is wrong?
- 4ad 10y ago
  > As a developer, it seems pretty clear to me that there is implicit bias going on in our industry. It doesn't seem clear to me at all. I have seen and lived through, or had many close acquaintances who lived through many specific example of discrimination, including sexual discrimination (in both directions!) but I would not dream of generalising from them. Even if many, or most of them were of a truly appalling nature. Deep prejudice with very damaging effects; nothing subtle of subjective about them. All instances were very different in details, but all that could be deduce from it is that people abuse other people, news at 11. It's very tempting to pretend that assholes, or social darwinism, or ruthless capitalism are examples of class warfare, but usually they are not. That is not to say that everything is perfect the way it is. Certainly there are specific problems, some including specific groups that I would want addressed. > I don't know how or why, but I don't believe that men are inherently better than women at the skills it takes to succeed, so I'm not sure what else would explain the discrepancy. Emphasis mine. Why do you think "to succeed" means, or should mean the same thing to everyone as it does to you? You really think that people outside your socially-defined neighbourhood did not succeed? There are many ways to succeed, but success is something defined by each individual for himself. It has nothing to do with money, nothing to do with employment, and certainly nothing to do with the industry you are part of! Do I think it would be bad for women to succeed less than men in general? I think it would be, but I have no data whether it's true or not in western societies, nor have any way of measuring it, so the point is moot. What I do know, is that whatever the answer to that question is, it has nothing to do with women in tech. That is to say, that even if there's deep injustice going on with women in the western world (no disagreement that there are many societies where women are abused), the solution (or part of the solution) surely is not promoting them without merit in high-tech organizations.
  - jordanlev 10y ago
    I'm basing my assumption solely on the numbers... the vast majority of programmers are male, which can only mean either men are "better" at the job, or that some other factor is causing it. Since I don't believe men are necessarily better at it than women, then I'm assuming it's the "other factors". That's the bias I'm talking about. I don't know exactly what it is (surely a combination of factors), but there has to be some sort of cultural explanation for it if you don't subscribe to the notion that it's in the DNA. Bias doesn't necessarily mean discrimantion per se... it could be biased views of women themselves towards careers (which I think is what Rob Pike was getting at in this blog post... and hence that having more role models might offset this bias).