9 ms·

I almost always consider it a strong positive, because Microsoft has a strong selection process (everyone who works there went through a day of interviewing).

by spolsky 16y ago

I almost always consider it a strong positive, because Microsoft has a strong selection process (everyone who works there went through a day of interviewing). That said, the way that Microsoft has been dealing with its extreme uncoolness lately has been by paying salaries that are far above market. With very few exceptions, every time I've tried to recruit a Microsoft veteran to a startup, they've started to pull out the spreadsheets and given me complicated sob stories about how they can make $1m in the next three years if they stay at Microsoft, whereas I'm only offering them, eh, a few % of a hot startup. The bottom line is that spending a lot of time at Microsoft could very well ruin you for startups. Even though I did it that way, there are two different ways of thinking about your career, and if you're REALLY a startup person, you're not going to be hedging bets by serving out your 5 year Microsoft prison sentence. If you're telling yourself that as soon as you're fully vested you'll leave, you have failed to take into account the new incentives that Microsoft will put in front of you by the end of the fifth year. And eventually you're going to be stuck in the $300,000/year treadmill at a life-sucking anonymous job with no chance of ever hitting it big (or making an impact on the world).

spoon16 16y ago
5 years was a personal goal that my wife and I worked out when I started, we had just gotten married and she really likes consistency while I really enjoy ambiguity. It doesn't really have anything to do with being fully vested or not... I joke with some of my hacker friends that I'm sticking around for the glass statue that you get at 5 years. Really I'm spending my time (another 6 months) trying to push Bing to exercise the benefits of structured data and data semantics on the web. I'm also trying to convince SQL as a product to spend more energy focusing on this area. If I'm hedging my bets at all it's related to being able to come back to work at a life-sucking anonymous job at a mega software corporation :) I hope that I will not need to but if my wife or family needed the benefits and comforts associated with this type of employment and I could not work out how to get it done another way. I wouldn't hesitate to come back.
- megablast 16y ago
  Wow, so you are just going to quit working at Microsoft because of some agreement you made with your wife. That concerns me that you aren't making decisions for the right reasons. Make sure you don't mention that in an interview. I would prefer someone to stay around because they like the job, or leave if they don't, not because there wife wants consitency. Apart from that, if you can talk about the things you achieved at working for such a huge company, that would be great. It is going to be a huge step moving to a smaller company, they way things work. Having worked at Microsoft for a shor time myself, the amount of organisational structure you have to go through to get the simplest of things done is insane, and a full time job in itself.
  - spoon16 16y ago
    There is nothing wrong with making career decisions with input from your family. Maybe I wasn't completely clear though. My staying at Microsoft even at times when I have been frustrated with management or direction is related to my personal goal (which my wife helped me to define). I am thankful that I have stayed, my team has done some really good work and I have influenced direction at a level which I never thought I would get to. My leaving Microsoft is not related to that goal or to my wife, except that meeting that goal allows me to more easily justify looking at new opportunities. I am getting close to my 5 year goal and I am starting to seriously evaluate my future opportunities and trying to figure out what I want to do. It's possible, though unlikely, that I will stay at Microsoft. The job I have now is a great job and I have worked hard to obtain the influence that I have within Microsoft. I left startups when I got married to provide my new family with some consistency and with the goal of really building out my resume with time spent influencing key projects at a strong industry leader. I feel that achieving that goal is a strong accomplishment. I am now well equipped to be a much stronger contributor for future employers and have the maturity to push through difficult times without bailing.
  - jacquesm 16y ago
    > Wow, so you are just going to quit working at Microsoft because of some agreement you made with your wife. Yes, just imagine that his wife should have a say in their future. Unbelievable.
seigenblues 16y ago
$300,000/year treadmill? Is that a joke? One year at 300K and i'd never need to be on a treadmill again -- 30k to build a house, 50k for land, probably still 70-100k left over after taxes to start my next business. So I'm gonna assume that was a joke... I'm equally lost on how to read the comment by the next clause, which seems to imply that the only way to make an impact on the world is through your job. Maybe hanging out on HN skews your perspective about living-the-dream, but i'd wager it's only one in a hundred who ever are lucky enough to work for a job that isn't life-sucking or anonymous -- if that many! As near as i can tell, for the rest of the world "compensation" is exactly what it sounds like, and satisfaction & contentment about your purpose & work in life have to come from other things. So anyway, sorry if this reads like a flame, but the last sentence really threw me for a loop and made me re-evaluate the rest of the comment. From where i stand 300k/year would completely change every aspect of my life -- but then again, i took a huge cut to work at a green energy startup, living the dream atm & working for peanuts :) I guess i'm saying "it'll only ruin you for startups if you let it!"
- jacquesm 16y ago
  I was sitting here laughing out loud when I read the $300K/year and calling it a 'treadmill' bit, it is really funny when you consider the vast majority of the people here would probably happily give up a kidney for that kind of money. Especially recurring. Makes me wonder if the GP isn't really a microsoft recruiter in a very complex disguise ;) I think there will be a large number of applicants to the treadmill because of that comment.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
starkfist 16y ago
I worked as an early employee (< 10) at 3 startups that were going to change the world and hit it big. I now have tens of thousands of worthless stock options. Where do I apply for the $300K/yr life sucking anonymous treadmill job?
- jacquesm 16y ago
  > Where do I apply for the $300K/yr life sucking anonymous treadmill job? Predictable :) GP owes me a clean keyboard. Really, it's hilarious to put treadmill and $300K / year in one sentence. That's one for the book. I realize they're separate concepts, but most start-ups would be pretty happy if they had that kind of money to divide up between the partners. Sure, the hours are longer and the food is worse so there is compensation, but still, you know.
- thewileyone 16y ago
  Hey, me too! But I have hundreds of thousands of worthless stock options that a 36 pack roll of deluxe toilet paper from Costco has more financial value than ...
- ajslater 16y ago
  I know several people in $300K+/yr treadmill jobs. I wouldn't trade places with them for all the world. I like to think that if I found myself with their salary I would have my priorities in a different order, but there's no guarantee of that. My own sense of avarice and comfort has changed a lot since my 20's.
  - GFischer 16y ago
    Try a $12K/yr treadmill job (see: World, Third). (yes, I know I'm repetitive, but I can't resist putting things in perspective whenever I see someone complaining about U$ 300.000 !!! )
bokonist 16y ago
And eventually you're going to be stuck in the $300,000/year treadmill at a life-sucking anonymous job with no chance of ever hitting it big (or making an impact on the world). Are they still paying that much for say a ten year engineer? Or was the outsized pay just a 90's/bubble thing? Or was that compensation coming form stock options that kept paying off (which no longer happens as MSFT has been pretty flat for the past ten years)?
- icey 16y ago
  I'm seriously curious about this as well. 300k a year for 5 years would buy at least a decade of time for working on startups for me with no reduction in quality of life... that's a tough sell to beat. Although... none of the Microsoft people I know seem to be doing significantly better than anyone else I know. Maybe it's a local to Seattle thing, but the MSFT people near me are still driving Hondas to work.

by spolsky 16y ago

spoon16 16y ago

5 years was a personal goal that my wife and I worked out when I started, we had just gotten married and she really likes consistency while I really enjoy ambiguity. It doesn't really have anything to do with being fully vested or not... I joke with some of my hacker friends that I'm sticking around for the glass statue that you get at 5 years. Really I'm spending my time (another 6 months) trying to push Bing to exercise the benefits of structured data and data semantics on the web. I'm also trying to convince SQL as a product to spend more energy focusing on this area. If I'm hedging my bets at all it's related to being able to come back to work at a life-sucking anonymous job at a mega software corporation :) I hope that I will not need to but if my wife or family needed the benefits and comforts associated with this type of employment and I could not work out how to get it done another way. I wouldn't hesitate to come back.

megablast 16y ago
Wow, so you are just going to quit working at Microsoft because of some agreement you made with your wife. That concerns me that you aren't making decisions for the right reasons. Make sure you don't mention that in an interview. I would prefer someone to stay around because they like the job, or leave if they don't, not because there wife wants consitency. Apart from that, if you can talk about the things you achieved at working for such a huge company, that would be great. It is going to be a huge step moving to a smaller company, they way things work. Having worked at Microsoft for a shor time myself, the amount of organisational structure you have to go through to get the simplest of things done is insane, and a full time job in itself.
- spoon16 16y ago
  There is nothing wrong with making career decisions with input from your family. Maybe I wasn't completely clear though. My staying at Microsoft even at times when I have been frustrated with management or direction is related to my personal goal (which my wife helped me to define). I am thankful that I have stayed, my team has done some really good work and I have influenced direction at a level which I never thought I would get to. My leaving Microsoft is not related to that goal or to my wife, except that meeting that goal allows me to more easily justify looking at new opportunities. I am getting close to my 5 year goal and I am starting to seriously evaluate my future opportunities and trying to figure out what I want to do. It's possible, though unlikely, that I will stay at Microsoft. The job I have now is a great job and I have worked hard to obtain the influence that I have within Microsoft. I left startups when I got married to provide my new family with some consistency and with the goal of really building out my resume with time spent influencing key projects at a strong industry leader. I feel that achieving that goal is a strong accomplishment. I am now well equipped to be a much stronger contributor for future employers and have the maturity to push through difficult times without bailing.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  > Wow, so you are just going to quit working at Microsoft because of some agreement you made with your wife. Yes, just imagine that his wife should have a say in their future. Unbelievable.

seigenblues 16y ago

$300,000/year treadmill? Is that a joke? One year at 300K and i'd never need to be on a treadmill again -- 30k to build a house, 50k for land, probably still 70-100k left over after taxes to start my next business. So I'm gonna assume that was a joke... I'm equally lost on how to read the comment by the next clause, which seems to imply that the only way to make an impact on the world is through your job. Maybe hanging out on HN skews your perspective about living-the-dream, but i'd wager it's only one in a hundred who ever are lucky enough to work for a job that isn't life-sucking or anonymous -- if that many! As near as i can tell, for the rest of the world "compensation" is exactly what it sounds like, and satisfaction & contentment about your purpose & work in life have to come from other things. So anyway, sorry if this reads like a flame, but the last sentence really threw me for a loop and made me re-evaluate the rest of the comment. From where i stand 300k/year would completely change every aspect of my life -- but then again, i took a huge cut to work at a green energy startup, living the dream atm & working for peanuts :) I guess i'm saying "it'll only ruin you for startups if you let it!"

jacquesm 16y ago
I was sitting here laughing out loud when I read the $300K/year and calling it a 'treadmill' bit, it is really funny when you consider the vast majority of the people here would probably happily give up a kidney for that kind of money. Especially recurring. Makes me wonder if the GP isn't really a microsoft recruiter in a very complex disguise ;) I think there will be a large number of applicants to the treadmill because of that comment.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]

starkfist 16y ago

I worked as an early employee (< 10) at 3 startups that were going to change the world and hit it big. I now have tens of thousands of worthless stock options. Where do I apply for the $300K/yr life sucking anonymous treadmill job?

jacquesm 16y ago
> Where do I apply for the $300K/yr life sucking anonymous treadmill job? Predictable :) GP owes me a clean keyboard. Really, it's hilarious to put treadmill and $300K / year in one sentence. That's one for the book. I realize they're separate concepts, but most start-ups would be pretty happy if they had that kind of money to divide up between the partners. Sure, the hours are longer and the food is worse so there is compensation, but still, you know.
thewileyone 16y ago
Hey, me too! But I have hundreds of thousands of worthless stock options that a 36 pack roll of deluxe toilet paper from Costco has more financial value than ...
ajslater 16y ago
I know several people in $300K+/yr treadmill jobs. I wouldn't trade places with them for all the world. I like to think that if I found myself with their salary I would have my priorities in a different order, but there's no guarantee of that. My own sense of avarice and comfort has changed a lot since my 20's.
- GFischer 16y ago
  Try a $12K/yr treadmill job (see: World, Third). (yes, I know I'm repetitive, but I can't resist putting things in perspective whenever I see someone complaining about U$ 300.000 !!! )

bokonist 16y ago

And eventually you're going to be stuck in the $300,000/year treadmill at a life-sucking anonymous job with no chance of ever hitting it big (or making an impact on the world). Are they still paying that much for say a ten year engineer? Or was the outsized pay just a 90's/bubble thing? Or was that compensation coming form stock options that kept paying off (which no longer happens as MSFT has been pretty flat for the past ten years)?

icey 16y ago
I'm seriously curious about this as well. 300k a year for 5 years would buy at least a decade of time for working on startups for me with no reduction in quality of life... that's a tough sell to beat. Although... none of the Microsoft people I know seem to be doing significantly better than anyone else I know. Maybe it's a local to Seattle thing, but the MSFT people near me are still driving Hondas to work.