6 ms·

I'm not sure I believe this story one bit. Looking at the footage her attack is quite aggressive and she strides away very quickly. Also, VX nerve agent is dead

by Aqueous 10y ago

I'm not sure I believe this story one bit. Looking at the footage her attack is quite aggressive and she strides away very quickly. Also, VX nerve agent is deadly in small amounts. The fact that she appears fine means she may have been wearing some sort of protective covering. Why would you do that if you knew it was just baby oil?

saycheese 10y ago
Yes, VX is deadly, but no, it's possible to be exposed, wash it off, and be okay. Reality is this is a secret weapon and what little research has been done often does not become public.
- pvg 10y ago
  It's a military-use agent that's been around since the 50's. It's been extensively researched.
  - saycheese 10y ago
    Then you agree you can take a bare healthy hand, dip it in a VX bath, flush it with H2O, and be okay. If you're aware of public research that shows this, please feel free to link to it; I am not aware of such research.
    - tyingq 10y ago
      Someone described something like that in the earlier thread on this topic, here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13720436 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13720436
    - pvg 10y ago
      There was a comment to that effect on HN the other day with a reference but even without that just googling around makes it pretty clear the thing is not some mystery compound - effects, countermeasures, antidotes, etc are all well-known. 'Secret chemical agent' is something like the gas used in the Nord-Ost hostage crisis - 15 years later, it's not publicly known what it was to begin with.
    - mitchty 10y ago
      Google books found the citation from the book mentioned in the other thread. https://books.google.com/books?id=gugwlufvShoC&pg=PA25&lpg=PA25&dq=Without+interrupting+his+lecture,+he+would+then+amble+to+a+nearby+sink+and+casually+wash+the+deadly+chemical+from+his+finger.&source=bl&ots=YcDr6s0_00&sig=Fd8G_ETAv2PEs-rfJQ_tP8vRy5w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi2-MLTyKvSAhUk0oMKHZjJAuIQ6AEIIjAB#v=onepage&q=Without%20interrupting%20his%20lecture%2C%20he%20would%20then%20amble%20to%20a%20nearby%20sink%20and%20casually%20wash%20the%20deadly%20chemical%20from%20his%20finger.&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=gugwlufvShoC&pg=PA25&lpg=P...
      - userbinator 10y ago
        From the article: Mr Kim had sought medical help at the airport, saying someone had splashed or sprayed him with liquid Perhaps he didn't act quickly enough. Lesson learned: if an unknown liquid touches you, get it off ASAP.
        saycheese 10y ago
        Really depends on the liquid, since some liquids respond very badly to H2O, the most likely method used to remove a foriegn element. Unless it's obvious what the best course of action is, trying to detant the attacker and anything in there person would be the most likely source of additional information.
- M_Grey 10y ago
  I've never heard of that, unless by "wash off" you mean "wash off and take a huge dose of atropine and some other drugs, while on the way to the hospital." Then you definitely have a chance, but you'll have some interesting symptoms for the rest of your foreshortened life.
  - ksrm 10y ago
    There appears to be a prophylactic compound that can prevent the effects of VX: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butyrylcholinesterase#Prophylactic_countermeasure_against_nerve_gas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butyrylcholinesterase#Prophyla...
    - M_Grey 10y ago
      Yeah, the injectors you get for chemical weapons is either atropine, or a mix of atropine and just that. It can work, but it's not magic, and the dose you're exposed to matters. It's also very much the thing you do to stay alive until you can supportive medical care, not a cure or "vaccine". You also have quite limited time to use it on yourself before you're unable to move well enough to manage. That said, since Jong-Nam probably got a small dose, that might have saved him, but of course... who'd have had it? Who'd have known? In the military you're trained to recognize the symptoms of nerve agents, because you need to notice the very early ones to have a chance... most people don't get/need that training.
  - 1wd 10y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13720436 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13720436
    - M_Grey 10y ago
      Oh I see, but a few point to keep in mind... if that guy has a cut on his finger, or even a crack... whoooooole different ending. You're talking about someone prepared, choosing a finger to dip, then as the bit says "promptly washing off". That is not really analogous to having your face in some way sprayed/daubed/covered with it. Your face has large pores, plus your nose, mouth, and eyes are there. I doubt the choice of the face was accidental. Maybe he could have washed it off, but I doubt it.
toxican 10y ago
I'm open to the possibility that she's a liar, but until that's proven I'm inclined to assume innocent until proven guilty and feel bad for her.
pvg 10y ago
It's not instantly deadly. All they had to do was wash up.
abe_duarte 10y ago
I agree, her movements are very decisive. This does not look like somebody carrying out a prank.
- PDoyle 10y ago
  <sigh> All the instant body-language experts. Let's convict her because her motions on a blurry security cam definitely rule out "nervously pulling a prank on a stranger" and are only consistent with "highly sophisticated international assassin with no escape plan".
  - joosters 10y ago
    No need to over-react. You're the only one talking about convicting her based on the video. It's perfectly fine for people to comment on what we see.
  - tyingq 10y ago
    This story, if true, does seem to point to some complicity: http://www.thestar.com.my/news/nation/2017/02/18/killer-women-recruited-by-a-man-three-months-ago/ http://www.thestar.com.my/news/nation/2017/02/18/killer-wome... Mentions being recruited months ago, and practice sessions that included injecting the victim. I don't know that a reasonable person would conclude that an injection was a normal thing to do in a prank. Of course, news is often misreported, so yeah...innocent until proven guilty. But people will speculate, and there are some things that feel fishy.
ErikHuisman 10y ago
The poison was applied in two components (Binary VX). It is reported that one of the two woman indeed did get sick as she was exposed to the poison by her hand.
- JohnJamesRambo 10y ago
  You don't know it was applied in a binary fashion. Applying it that way and expecting the chemical reaction to proceed correctly and with enough yield on someone's face while applied with two different wipes sounds like a very poor plan. You may only need 10 mg absorbed to kill someone but 10 mg is still a sizeable amount of something.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- ErikHuisman 10y ago
  Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/24/world/asia/north-korea-kim-jong-nam-vx-nerve-agent.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/24/world/asia/north-korea-ki...
FabHK 10y ago
Also, keep in mind that the minimum monthly salary for the (230,000) Indonesian maids in Malaysia is 900 MYR (about 200 USD). (And from my experience in HK that's also the median and mean salary...) So, they were basically offering half a month's salary. Imagine what you would get anyone to do for, say, 1000 USD cash. http://news.asiaone.com/news/malaysia/indonesia-raises-minimum-monthly-salary-domestic-helpers-malaysia http://news.asiaone.com/news/malaysia/indonesia-raises-minim...
- senior_james 10y ago
  ..who do you know that would kill someone for $1000 cash?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - derrickdirge 10y ago
    I bet I could find someone to smear baby oil on a stranger's face for $1000.
    - FabHK 10y ago
      That was my point, yes. I find it very plausible that they find a maid (there'll be many at the airport, relatively easy to identify), and tell her this was some sort of TV show, go there, do this, leave, we'll all have a laugh, and here's $90 (which is peanuts to a big TV show, even in Malaysia, but, as I said, half a month's salary for a maid there, equivalent-ish to $1000 in the USA, say). There's nothing suspicious about that maid's story, in my view.
  - M_Grey 10y ago
    Almost anyone with a serious meth problem.
  - Thrillington 10y ago
    1k is 6 months salary in Malaysia. I've met tons of people who would make an attempt for 25k, which is half the median salary in the United States.

by Aqueous 10y ago

saycheese 10y ago

Yes, VX is deadly, but no, it's possible to be exposed, wash it off, and be okay. Reality is this is a secret weapon and what little research has been done often does not become public.

pvg 10y ago
It's a military-use agent that's been around since the 50's. It's been extensively researched.
- saycheese 10y ago
  Then you agree you can take a bare healthy hand, dip it in a VX bath, flush it with H2O, and be okay. If you're aware of public research that shows this, please feel free to link to it; I am not aware of such research.
  - tyingq 10y ago
    Someone described something like that in the earlier thread on this topic, here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13720436 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13720436
  - pvg 10y ago
    There was a comment to that effect on HN the other day with a reference but even without that just googling around makes it pretty clear the thing is not some mystery compound - effects, countermeasures, antidotes, etc are all well-known. 'Secret chemical agent' is something like the gas used in the Nord-Ost hostage crisis - 15 years later, it's not publicly known what it was to begin with.
  - mitchty 10y ago
    Google books found the citation from the book mentioned in the other thread. https://books.google.com/books?id=gugwlufvShoC&pg=PA25&lpg=PA25&dq=Without+interrupting+his+lecture,+he+would+then+amble+to+a+nearby+sink+and+casually+wash+the+deadly+chemical+from+his+finger.&source=bl&ots=YcDr6s0_00&sig=Fd8G_ETAv2PEs-rfJQ_tP8vRy5w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi2-MLTyKvSAhUk0oMKHZjJAuIQ6AEIIjAB#v=onepage&q=Without%20interrupting%20his%20lecture%2C%20he%20would%20then%20amble%20to%20a%20nearby%20sink%20and%20casually%20wash%20the%20deadly%20chemical%20from%20his%20finger.&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=gugwlufvShoC&pg=PA25&lpg=P...
    - userbinator 10y ago
      From the article: Mr Kim had sought medical help at the airport, saying someone had splashed or sprayed him with liquid Perhaps he didn't act quickly enough. Lesson learned: if an unknown liquid touches you, get it off ASAP.
      - saycheese 10y ago
        Really depends on the liquid, since some liquids respond very badly to H2O, the most likely method used to remove a foriegn element. Unless it's obvious what the best course of action is, trying to detant the attacker and anything in there person would be the most likely source of additional information.
M_Grey 10y ago
I've never heard of that, unless by "wash off" you mean "wash off and take a huge dose of atropine and some other drugs, while on the way to the hospital." Then you definitely have a chance, but you'll have some interesting symptoms for the rest of your foreshortened life.
- ksrm 10y ago
  There appears to be a prophylactic compound that can prevent the effects of VX: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butyrylcholinesterase#Prophylactic_countermeasure_against_nerve_gas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butyrylcholinesterase#Prophyla...
  - M_Grey 10y ago
    Yeah, the injectors you get for chemical weapons is either atropine, or a mix of atropine and just that. It can work, but it's not magic, and the dose you're exposed to matters. It's also very much the thing you do to stay alive until you can supportive medical care, not a cure or "vaccine". You also have quite limited time to use it on yourself before you're unable to move well enough to manage. That said, since Jong-Nam probably got a small dose, that might have saved him, but of course... who'd have had it? Who'd have known? In the military you're trained to recognize the symptoms of nerve agents, because you need to notice the very early ones to have a chance... most people don't get/need that training.
- 1wd 10y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13720436 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13720436
  - M_Grey 10y ago
    Oh I see, but a few point to keep in mind... if that guy has a cut on his finger, or even a crack... whoooooole different ending. You're talking about someone prepared, choosing a finger to dip, then as the bit says "promptly washing off". That is not really analogous to having your face in some way sprayed/daubed/covered with it. Your face has large pores, plus your nose, mouth, and eyes are there. I doubt the choice of the face was accidental. Maybe he could have washed it off, but I doubt it.

toxican 10y ago

I'm open to the possibility that she's a liar, but until that's proven I'm inclined to assume innocent until proven guilty and feel bad for her.

pvg 10y ago

It's not instantly deadly. All they had to do was wash up.

abe_duarte 10y ago

I agree, her movements are very decisive. This does not look like somebody carrying out a prank.

PDoyle 10y ago
<sigh> All the instant body-language experts. Let's convict her because her motions on a blurry security cam definitely rule out "nervously pulling a prank on a stranger" and are only consistent with "highly sophisticated international assassin with no escape plan".
- joosters 10y ago
  No need to over-react. You're the only one talking about convicting her based on the video. It's perfectly fine for people to comment on what we see.
- tyingq 10y ago
  This story, if true, does seem to point to some complicity: http://www.thestar.com.my/news/nation/2017/02/18/killer-women-recruited-by-a-man-three-months-ago/ http://www.thestar.com.my/news/nation/2017/02/18/killer-wome... Mentions being recruited months ago, and practice sessions that included injecting the victim. I don't know that a reasonable person would conclude that an injection was a normal thing to do in a prank. Of course, news is often misreported, so yeah...innocent until proven guilty. But people will speculate, and there are some things that feel fishy.

ErikHuisman 10y ago

The poison was applied in two components (Binary VX). It is reported that one of the two woman indeed did get sick as she was exposed to the poison by her hand.

JohnJamesRambo 10y ago
You don't know it was applied in a binary fashion. Applying it that way and expecting the chemical reaction to proceed correctly and with enough yield on someone's face while applied with two different wipes sounds like a very poor plan. You may only need 10 mg absorbed to kill someone but 10 mg is still a sizeable amount of something.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
ErikHuisman 10y ago
Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/24/world/asia/north-korea-kim-jong-nam-vx-nerve-agent.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/24/world/asia/north-korea-ki...

FabHK 10y ago

Also, keep in mind that the minimum monthly salary for the (230,000) Indonesian maids in Malaysia is 900 MYR (about 200 USD). (And from my experience in HK that's also the median and mean salary...) So, they were basically offering half a month's salary. Imagine what you would get anyone to do for, say, 1000 USD cash. http://news.asiaone.com/news/malaysia/indonesia-raises-minimum-monthly-salary-domestic-helpers-malaysia http://news.asiaone.com/news/malaysia/indonesia-raises-minim...

senior_james 10y ago
..who do you know that would kill someone for $1000 cash?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- derrickdirge 10y ago
  I bet I could find someone to smear baby oil on a stranger's face for $1000.
  - FabHK 10y ago
    That was my point, yes. I find it very plausible that they find a maid (there'll be many at the airport, relatively easy to identify), and tell her this was some sort of TV show, go there, do this, leave, we'll all have a laugh, and here's $90 (which is peanuts to a big TV show, even in Malaysia, but, as I said, half a month's salary for a maid there, equivalent-ish to $1000 in the USA, say). There's nothing suspicious about that maid's story, in my view.
- M_Grey 10y ago
  Almost anyone with a serious meth problem.
- Thrillington 10y ago
  1k is 6 months salary in Malaysia. I've met tons of people who would make an attempt for 25k, which is half the median salary in the United States.