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> i really marvel at the mental gymnastics/machinery that goes into convincing oneself that humans are somehow a class apart from animals One can even characte

> i really marvel at the mental gymnastics/machinery that goes into convincing oneself that humans are somehow a class apart from animals One can even characterize the history of science as a timeline of refuting humanity's exceptionalism starting with Copernicus's technical and metaphorical discovery that we are not the center of the universe. Lately, I've been wrestling with the issue and come to the conclusion that consciousness is either something that all life possesses or simply does not exist.

cgriswald 10y ago
> One can even characterize the history of science as a timeline of refuting humanity's exceptionalism starting with Galileo's technical and metaphorical discovery that we are not the center of the universe. Nonsense! The history of science is one of the things that makes humanity exceptional on Earth. As for the rest of the universe... The search for life is telling us that life may be abundant throughout the universe, but that animal life and intelligent life may be rare or even unique to Earth. Our solar system is a freak compared to what we've found out there so far: Our star isn't a red dwarf. Our solar system is arranged with gas giants as outer planets and small terrestrial planets as inner planets, and has exactly zero super-Earths. Our planet has an incredibly large satellite. We live inhabit a relatively peaceful, but still resourceful part of our galaxy. We're alive relatively early in the history of the universe in terms of the materials for life being available, and a huge amount of the universe still being in information contact with us... > Lately, I've been wrestling with the issue and come to the conclusion that consciousness is either something that all life possesses or simply does not exist. How can one come to the conclusion that consciousness does not exist? "I think, therefore I do not think." My own personal view is that consciousness is either an emergent property of the brain, in which case only brained organisms could even hope to have consciousness, and depending on which part of the brain, not even all brained organisms might be conscious; or a fundamental property of the universe which the brain has evolved to take advantage of because it provides a selective advantage, in which case again, not all organisms will have consciousness. It isn't clear to me why the distinction between conscious and unconscious would be between living and non-living. Why would an amoeba have consciousness and a volcano not have consciousness? I'd be willing to accept they BOTH have consciousness before I would be willing to accept only one of them does. The former implies something fundamental, the latter implies arbitrary distinctions among chemistries. But consciousness, in my experience, at least, seems linked in some way to the state of my brain. If I am knocked out, my consciousness stops. In a sense, it disappears. By what mechanism does it get saved and reappear? My memory saves it, my brain restarts it when I wake up. If I sleep, I might dream, in which case my consciousness is altered as is my brain state. Consciousness seems localized in my brain, aware only of the things my brain can be aware of through the senses.
- FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago
  > but that animal life and intelligent life may be rare or even unique to Earth. Our solar system is a freak compared to what we've found out there so far: This is the type of magical thinking that the parent OP is referencing, vastly exaggerating ourselves or aspects of ourselves to make us exceptional. Let's first set foot on another planet before even considering our universal supremacy. All we have our relatively uninformed ideas and hypotheses about what life would be on another planet. Our solar system is not a freak. Some 15% of star systems in the Milky Way are similar to ours with gas giants for away. It's not a majority, but not rare either. Oh yeah, multiply that by 100 billion galaxies in the observable universe (btw, the unobservable universe is 10^30 the size of our own. We're only looking for life like ours because that's all that we can realistically perceive, not because that's all that is possible. > We're alive relatively early in the history of the universe in terms of the materials for life being available, and a huge amount of the universe still being in information contact with us... Once again, you're employing exceptionalism and assuming that life has to resemble us and communicates in ways that we understand. There's so many holes in the Fermi Paradox that you can drive a big rig through it. A relatively simple one is that (let's assume other lifeforms are territorial) Earth is part of some alien empire and is off limits. Another simple one is that we have been contacted but humanity isn't ready. Considering what the current response to globalization (retrenchment and reinforcement of national identity), an intelligent alien civilization could come to the conclusion that introducing themselves would make matters worse. Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us - Eminent tiger philosopher Hobbes
  - cgriswald 10y ago
    > This is the type of magical thinking that the parent OP is referencing, vastly exaggerating ourselves or aspects of ourselves to make us exceptional. On the contrary, this is very sobering thinking that you and the OP have tried to turn into magical thinking by adding all kinds of value judgments to it like "exceptionalism" and "supremacy". I'm not objecting to the political view, although I find it bleak, nihilistic, and shallow. I'm objecting to your nonsensical justifications of it. I was also trying to continue your talk on consciousness because I find it interesting. > Our solar system is not a freak. Some 15% of star systems in the Milky Way are similar to ours with gas giants for away. It's not a majority, but not rare either. Oh yeah, multiply that by 100 billion galaxies in the observable universe This is simply wrong. The sun is a single, middle-aged, population I, G-type star with a configuration of planets that is unlike any other configuration of planets we've found so far. There's more that makes our system, and Earth in particular, unique, they're all fractions, and they all get multiplied together; and we're not as ignorant about those fractions as you'd like to argue. > (btw, the unobservable universe is 10^30 the size of our own. This is both theoretical and irrelevant. We can never interact with it, so even if it is teeming with life, we could still be alone. > Once again, you're employing exceptionalism and assuming that life has to resemble us and communicates in ways that we understand. No, I'm not. I'm describing ways that make us unique. You're saying it's not that we are unique, it's just that there's nothing else like us out there so we don't know how to look for it... > A relatively simple one is that (let's assume other lifeforms are territorial) Earth is part of some alien empire and is off limits. Another simple one is that we have been contacted but humanity isn't ready. Considering what the current response to globalization (retrenchment and reinforcement of national identity), an intelligent alien civilization could come to the conclusion that introducing themselves would make matters worse. This argument is tangential to the discussion. But you understand that both these scenarios have been considered and some scientists have looked for evidence of them, right? Dyson spheres are relatively easy to spot and haven't been found. Evidence of engineering on a galactic scale is easy to find if it exists. And before you say, "What if it looks like natural processes because it's so ubiquitous?" scientists have looked for evidence of that too, specifically with older elliptical galaxies to my knowledge, but probably in other places. And yes, there are other possibilities (civilizations scale down, rather than up, for instance) and we're continuing to look, but let's see evidence first. So far, the evidence says that we're probably rare. While you seem to think it is a bad thing to think or a justification for all kinds of bad thoughts, I think it means we have an obligation to both preserve the Earth and to get ourselves off of it to preserve ourselves.

cgriswald 10y ago

> One can even characterize the history of science as a timeline of refuting humanity's exceptionalism starting with Galileo's technical and metaphorical discovery that we are not the center of the universe. Nonsense! The history of science is one of the things that makes humanity exceptional on Earth. As for the rest of the universe... The search for life is telling us that life may be abundant throughout the universe, but that animal life and intelligent life may be rare or even unique to Earth. Our solar system is a freak compared to what we've found out there so far: Our star isn't a red dwarf. Our solar system is arranged with gas giants as outer planets and small terrestrial planets as inner planets, and has exactly zero super-Earths. Our planet has an incredibly large satellite. We live inhabit a relatively peaceful, but still resourceful part of our galaxy. We're alive relatively early in the history of the universe in terms of the materials for life being available, and a huge amount of the universe still being in information contact with us... > Lately, I've been wrestling with the issue and come to the conclusion that consciousness is either something that all life possesses or simply does not exist. How can one come to the conclusion that consciousness does not exist? "I think, therefore I do not think." My own personal view is that consciousness is either an emergent property of the brain, in which case only brained organisms could even hope to have consciousness, and depending on which part of the brain, not even all brained organisms might be conscious; or a fundamental property of the universe which the brain has evolved to take advantage of because it provides a selective advantage, in which case again, not all organisms will have consciousness. It isn't clear to me why the distinction between conscious and unconscious would be between living and non-living. Why would an amoeba have consciousness and a volcano not have consciousness? I'd be willing to accept they BOTH have consciousness before I would be willing to accept only one of them does. The former implies something fundamental, the latter implies arbitrary distinctions among chemistries. But consciousness, in my experience, at least, seems linked in some way to the state of my brain. If I am knocked out, my consciousness stops. In a sense, it disappears. By what mechanism does it get saved and reappear? My memory saves it, my brain restarts it when I wake up. If I sleep, I might dream, in which case my consciousness is altered as is my brain state. Consciousness seems localized in my brain, aware only of the things my brain can be aware of through the senses.

FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago
> but that animal life and intelligent life may be rare or even unique to Earth. Our solar system is a freak compared to what we've found out there so far: This is the type of magical thinking that the parent OP is referencing, vastly exaggerating ourselves or aspects of ourselves to make us exceptional. Let's first set foot on another planet before even considering our universal supremacy. All we have our relatively uninformed ideas and hypotheses about what life would be on another planet. Our solar system is not a freak. Some 15% of star systems in the Milky Way are similar to ours with gas giants for away. It's not a majority, but not rare either. Oh yeah, multiply that by 100 billion galaxies in the observable universe (btw, the unobservable universe is 10^30 the size of our own. We're only looking for life like ours because that's all that we can realistically perceive, not because that's all that is possible. > We're alive relatively early in the history of the universe in terms of the materials for life being available, and a huge amount of the universe still being in information contact with us... Once again, you're employing exceptionalism and assuming that life has to resemble us and communicates in ways that we understand. There's so many holes in the Fermi Paradox that you can drive a big rig through it. A relatively simple one is that (let's assume other lifeforms are territorial) Earth is part of some alien empire and is off limits. Another simple one is that we have been contacted but humanity isn't ready. Considering what the current response to globalization (retrenchment and reinforcement of national identity), an intelligent alien civilization could come to the conclusion that introducing themselves would make matters worse. Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us - Eminent tiger philosopher Hobbes
- cgriswald 10y ago
  > This is the type of magical thinking that the parent OP is referencing, vastly exaggerating ourselves or aspects of ourselves to make us exceptional. On the contrary, this is very sobering thinking that you and the OP have tried to turn into magical thinking by adding all kinds of value judgments to it like "exceptionalism" and "supremacy". I'm not objecting to the political view, although I find it bleak, nihilistic, and shallow. I'm objecting to your nonsensical justifications of it. I was also trying to continue your talk on consciousness because I find it interesting. > Our solar system is not a freak. Some 15% of star systems in the Milky Way are similar to ours with gas giants for away. It's not a majority, but not rare either. Oh yeah, multiply that by 100 billion galaxies in the observable universe This is simply wrong. The sun is a single, middle-aged, population I, G-type star with a configuration of planets that is unlike any other configuration of planets we've found so far. There's more that makes our system, and Earth in particular, unique, they're all fractions, and they all get multiplied together; and we're not as ignorant about those fractions as you'd like to argue. > (btw, the unobservable universe is 10^30 the size of our own. This is both theoretical and irrelevant. We can never interact with it, so even if it is teeming with life, we could still be alone. > Once again, you're employing exceptionalism and assuming that life has to resemble us and communicates in ways that we understand. No, I'm not. I'm describing ways that make us unique. You're saying it's not that we are unique, it's just that there's nothing else like us out there so we don't know how to look for it... > A relatively simple one is that (let's assume other lifeforms are territorial) Earth is part of some alien empire and is off limits. Another simple one is that we have been contacted but humanity isn't ready. Considering what the current response to globalization (retrenchment and reinforcement of national identity), an intelligent alien civilization could come to the conclusion that introducing themselves would make matters worse. This argument is tangential to the discussion. But you understand that both these scenarios have been considered and some scientists have looked for evidence of them, right? Dyson spheres are relatively easy to spot and haven't been found. Evidence of engineering on a galactic scale is easy to find if it exists. And before you say, "What if it looks like natural processes because it's so ubiquitous?" scientists have looked for evidence of that too, specifically with older elliptical galaxies to my knowledge, but probably in other places. And yes, there are other possibilities (civilizations scale down, rather than up, for instance) and we're continuing to look, but let's see evidence first. So far, the evidence says that we're probably rare. While you seem to think it is a bad thing to think or a justification for all kinds of bad thoughts, I think it means we have an obligation to both preserve the Earth and to get ourselves off of it to preserve ourselves.