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I believe the essence of what you're saying is true, but I dispute the overall reasonableness of what you describe. The vast majority of video games are either

I believe the essence of what you're saying is true, but I dispute the overall reasonableness of what you describe. The vast majority of video games are either built around the principles of addiction, or require a tremendous amount of time in muscle memory training. What you're describing seems like describing how enjoyable it can be to smoke one cigarette a month. (assuming that actually felt good). Could be true- but the odds are certainly stacked against people attempting that behavior.

M_Grey 10y ago
You can build the skills necessary to play games over time, and of course it greatly depends on the games you play. I would tend to stay away from pure time sinks like MMO's, and I've lost the taste for 2D fighters. That said, I've been playing FPS' since FPS', and those skills wake up whenever I play for more than ten or twenty minutes. I don't see a correlation with cigarettes, which offer you nothing beneficial, are physically addictive on the level of heroin, and are one of the leading causes of human death.
- GuiA 10y ago
  > which offer you nothing beneficial Nicotine can have some benefits; see for instance https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6457772 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6457772 > are physically addictive on the level of heroin False. They're a bit above alcohol; heroin is much higher. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rational_scale_to_assess_the_harm_of_drugs_(mean_physical_harm_and_mean_dependence).svg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rational_scale_to_as... > and are one of the leading causes of human death. Correct.
  - M_Grey 10y ago
    Fair enough... if you're schizophrenic and medicated, by all means vape or take nicotine in some form. There is still no real argument for smoking though... it's the worst way to handle something that is already mildly hazardous. Edit: By the way, for an appreciation of "A bit above alcohol", check out an inpatient alcohol detox clinic sometime... it is no joke at all.
  - NateEag 10y ago
    > False. They're a bit above alcohol; heroin is much higher. I realize this is anecdotal, but I feel the need to point out that my father, a veteran ER doctor of over thirty years, has said more than once that based on his experience of patients, he thinks it is easier to quit heroin than nicotine.
    - GuiA 10y ago
      Huh interesting. Thanks for the datapoint. Fwiw, nicotine has never been problematic for me. I dated a girl who smoked for 3 years, and she'd smoke around me all the time- and while i indulged in it every once in a while, i never felt like i HAD to smoke. Biological things at play, most certainly.
    - smitherfield 10y ago
      Perhaps because people who are addicted to nicotine are likely to also have addictive personalities, whereas anyone can easily get addicted to heroin. Kind of like how in WWII the British improved the survivability of their bombers by increasing the armor in the places returning aircraft weren't damaged, theorizing correctly that those were the places the planes that didn't return were hit. If a person with an addictive personality gets on heroin, they're probably visiting the ER very few if any times before they hit the morgue.
    - kolinko 10y ago
      Check out this paper if you're interested in Nicotine: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f961/639e2a998d275f3e8f8f4ccb41564a00d63f.pdf https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f961/639e2a998d275f3e8f8f4c... Nicotine is quite often used as a form of self-medication - it's helpful for people with all kinds of issues, from depression to adhd, to weight control. Even among doctors, there is very little knowledge on the subject of why people take up smoking, and usually it's assumed it's just a matter of bad habits. So, if someone uses nicotine as an unwitting way of self-medication, it will indeed be extremely difficult to quit without fixing the core problem. To some extent it's like calling SSRIs "hard to quit", because people who begin taking them often never quit, even when side affects are worse than those of nicotine.
emodendroket 10y ago
> The vast majority of video games are either built around the principles of addiction, or require a tremendous amount of time in muscle memory training. Well, define "vast majority of video games." Certainly that's true if we mean F2P phone games. For a lot of others I am not so sure.
- M_Grey 10y ago
  To be fair, when it comes to those F2P phones games, I would start to agree with the cigarette analogy... those are just skinner boxes with coin slots.
  - problems 10y ago
    Some of those can be pretty fun, but when you get to the point that paying for it seems at all tempting it's time to take a different approach - the way which involves a decompiler, a debugger and maybe Frida too. When free to play becomes pay to win, writing your own cheats is the more fun and rewarding option.
    - M_Grey 10y ago
      And that is how you leverage your downtime into something at least tangentially related to productivity. I like it!
ZeroFries 10y ago
His ice cream analogy was on point. There are plenty of video games which dont match your criteria. The ones that do (albeit the majority of mainstream games) become popular for obvious reasons, but one can even enjoy those in moderation if they have the mental skills to do so (like the people who can smoke cigarettes ocassionally and not become addicted).
wlesieutre 10y ago
I don't think a tremendous amount of time in training is mutually exclusive with brain-in-neutral activities. It's a question of what your goal is with the activity, and how you approach it as a result of that. My friends and I play Overwatch. It's a game with an incredibly high skill ceiling, and if we wanted to compete professionally, sure, we'd have to spend a ton of time in focused training. But we don't. We just hop on voice chat, play in Gold/Platinum against people of similar skill level, and we have a good time with it. Sometimes we'll pick up new strategies, we learn different characters, our aim and game-sense probably improve, but that's all secondary to hanging out and enjoying the game. None of us are ever going to be competing in Master / GM / Top 500 tiers, and the amount of time it'd take to train and get better is immaterial to us because none of us want to.
GuiA 10y ago
I smoke a cigarette or two about once a month on average, typically when attending a party. Not only is it quite pleasant after I've had a beer or three, but they're the ultimate social hack for introverted nerds. Are you at a crowded bar/party where it's impossible to have a proper talk with someone? Step outside for a smoke, and you can instantly have a nice, low key conversation with the other smokers. Lulls in the conversation aren't awkward cause you can just go back to taking drags; and once you're done, you can keep talking if you like the person- or have the perfect excuse to head back in if you don't. Highly recommended.
- blkhp19 10y ago
  As a non smoker, reading this just makes me feel depressed. So you use smoking cigarettes as a crutch when making real conversations with the non-smokers inside gets hard? Then you fill in gaps in conversation with more smoking? Most people cope with those naturally occurring conversation gaps without breathing in smoke. Serious question - Are you, as you stand out there with the party going on behind you, slightly repulsed by the fact that you connected with someone because you're both doing the same disgusting habit? The whole scenario seems so absurdly sad, and certainly not something I'd "highly recommend" to anyone.
  - lolc 10y ago
    I've always tried and failed to keep my smoking habit to occasions where I could enjoy the smoking. I wouldn't "highly recommend" trying it, because very few people can keep it at that level. I couldn't, and my way of quitting was to remember all the other ones I smoked. To this day, on the rare occasions where I crave smoking, I'll just remind myself of the nausea, the bad throat, the smell, the dizziness and whatever else the other ones, the ones I would smoke after the good one, would do to me.
  - GuiA 10y ago
    Aw you sound sad man. If you want to grab a beer and a smoke some time, hit me up!
  - justinpombrio 10y ago
nichochar 10y ago
You're mistaking all games for competitive games :) Classic.
marvin 10y ago
That's a pretty dark view of computer games. It's a popular media type like any other. You have all ends of the complexity spectrum, from undisputable art on one end to poorly-concealed skinner boxes on the other end. People who appreciate computer games as a serious hobby will tend to enjoy games on the complex end of this spectrum. These games are no more built around the principles of addiction than a good book, or a physical activity like skiing.

M_Grey 10y ago

You can build the skills necessary to play games over time, and of course it greatly depends on the games you play. I would tend to stay away from pure time sinks like MMO's, and I've lost the taste for 2D fighters. That said, I've been playing FPS' since FPS', and those skills wake up whenever I play for more than ten or twenty minutes. I don't see a correlation with cigarettes, which offer you nothing beneficial, are physically addictive on the level of heroin, and are one of the leading causes of human death.

GuiA 10y ago
> which offer you nothing beneficial Nicotine can have some benefits; see for instance https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6457772 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6457772 > are physically addictive on the level of heroin False. They're a bit above alcohol; heroin is much higher. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rational_scale_to_assess_the_harm_of_drugs_(mean_physical_harm_and_mean_dependence).svg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rational_scale_to_as... > and are one of the leading causes of human death. Correct.
- M_Grey 10y ago
  Fair enough... if you're schizophrenic and medicated, by all means vape or take nicotine in some form. There is still no real argument for smoking though... it's the worst way to handle something that is already mildly hazardous. Edit: By the way, for an appreciation of "A bit above alcohol", check out an inpatient alcohol detox clinic sometime... it is no joke at all.
- NateEag 10y ago
  > False. They're a bit above alcohol; heroin is much higher. I realize this is anecdotal, but I feel the need to point out that my father, a veteran ER doctor of over thirty years, has said more than once that based on his experience of patients, he thinks it is easier to quit heroin than nicotine.
  - GuiA 10y ago
    Huh interesting. Thanks for the datapoint. Fwiw, nicotine has never been problematic for me. I dated a girl who smoked for 3 years, and she'd smoke around me all the time- and while i indulged in it every once in a while, i never felt like i HAD to smoke. Biological things at play, most certainly.
  - smitherfield 10y ago
    Perhaps because people who are addicted to nicotine are likely to also have addictive personalities, whereas anyone can easily get addicted to heroin. Kind of like how in WWII the British improved the survivability of their bombers by increasing the armor in the places returning aircraft weren't damaged, theorizing correctly that those were the places the planes that didn't return were hit. If a person with an addictive personality gets on heroin, they're probably visiting the ER very few if any times before they hit the morgue.
  - kolinko 10y ago
    Check out this paper if you're interested in Nicotine: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f961/639e2a998d275f3e8f8f4ccb41564a00d63f.pdf https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f961/639e2a998d275f3e8f8f4c... Nicotine is quite often used as a form of self-medication - it's helpful for people with all kinds of issues, from depression to adhd, to weight control. Even among doctors, there is very little knowledge on the subject of why people take up smoking, and usually it's assumed it's just a matter of bad habits. So, if someone uses nicotine as an unwitting way of self-medication, it will indeed be extremely difficult to quit without fixing the core problem. To some extent it's like calling SSRIs "hard to quit", because people who begin taking them often never quit, even when side affects are worse than those of nicotine.

emodendroket 10y ago

> The vast majority of video games are either built around the principles of addiction, or require a tremendous amount of time in muscle memory training. Well, define "vast majority of video games." Certainly that's true if we mean F2P phone games. For a lot of others I am not so sure.

M_Grey 10y ago
To be fair, when it comes to those F2P phones games, I would start to agree with the cigarette analogy... those are just skinner boxes with coin slots.
- problems 10y ago
  Some of those can be pretty fun, but when you get to the point that paying for it seems at all tempting it's time to take a different approach - the way which involves a decompiler, a debugger and maybe Frida too. When free to play becomes pay to win, writing your own cheats is the more fun and rewarding option.
  - M_Grey 10y ago
    And that is how you leverage your downtime into something at least tangentially related to productivity. I like it!

ZeroFries 10y ago

His ice cream analogy was on point. There are plenty of video games which dont match your criteria. The ones that do (albeit the majority of mainstream games) become popular for obvious reasons, but one can even enjoy those in moderation if they have the mental skills to do so (like the people who can smoke cigarettes ocassionally and not become addicted).

wlesieutre 10y ago

I don't think a tremendous amount of time in training is mutually exclusive with brain-in-neutral activities. It's a question of what your goal is with the activity, and how you approach it as a result of that. My friends and I play Overwatch. It's a game with an incredibly high skill ceiling, and if we wanted to compete professionally, sure, we'd have to spend a ton of time in focused training. But we don't. We just hop on voice chat, play in Gold/Platinum against people of similar skill level, and we have a good time with it. Sometimes we'll pick up new strategies, we learn different characters, our aim and game-sense probably improve, but that's all secondary to hanging out and enjoying the game. None of us are ever going to be competing in Master / GM / Top 500 tiers, and the amount of time it'd take to train and get better is immaterial to us because none of us want to.

GuiA 10y ago

I smoke a cigarette or two about once a month on average, typically when attending a party. Not only is it quite pleasant after I've had a beer or three, but they're the ultimate social hack for introverted nerds. Are you at a crowded bar/party where it's impossible to have a proper talk with someone? Step outside for a smoke, and you can instantly have a nice, low key conversation with the other smokers. Lulls in the conversation aren't awkward cause you can just go back to taking drags; and once you're done, you can keep talking if you like the person- or have the perfect excuse to head back in if you don't. Highly recommended.

blkhp19 10y ago
As a non smoker, reading this just makes me feel depressed. So you use smoking cigarettes as a crutch when making real conversations with the non-smokers inside gets hard? Then you fill in gaps in conversation with more smoking? Most people cope with those naturally occurring conversation gaps without breathing in smoke. Serious question - Are you, as you stand out there with the party going on behind you, slightly repulsed by the fact that you connected with someone because you're both doing the same disgusting habit? The whole scenario seems so absurdly sad, and certainly not something I'd "highly recommend" to anyone.
- lolc 10y ago
  I've always tried and failed to keep my smoking habit to occasions where I could enjoy the smoking. I wouldn't "highly recommend" trying it, because very few people can keep it at that level. I couldn't, and my way of quitting was to remember all the other ones I smoked. To this day, on the rare occasions where I crave smoking, I'll just remind myself of the nausea, the bad throat, the smell, the dizziness and whatever else the other ones, the ones I would smoke after the good one, would do to me.
- GuiA 10y ago
  Aw you sound sad man. If you want to grab a beer and a smoke some time, hit me up!
- justinpombrio 10y ago

nichochar 10y ago

You're mistaking all games for competitive games :) Classic.

marvin 10y ago

That's a pretty dark view of computer games. It's a popular media type like any other. You have all ends of the complexity spectrum, from undisputable art on one end to poorly-concealed skinner boxes on the other end. People who appreciate computer games as a serious hobby will tend to enjoy games on the complex end of this spectrum. These games are no more built around the principles of addiction than a good book, or a physical activity like skiing.