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Not only is helping the defense industry downright immoral, it's a waste of talent. Just think back to why you studied computer science or coding. I hope it wa

Not only is helping the defense industry downright immoral, it's a waste of talent. Just think back to why you studied computer science or coding. I hope it wasn't to help build spy tools on your friends & families. I hope it wasn't to help engineer destructive weapons that is dropped on innocent civilians. Fuck code.mil, fuck lockheed martin. edit: I've turned down VC money a while ago because I discovered they had previously sold a company to Lockheed Martin affiliate. Downvote all you want but I'm not some spinless piece of shit that will throw out principles and morals for it. I love making money but it's not worth losing your compass or soul over.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
mindcrime 10y ago
I'm sorry you've been downvoted so heavily. FWIW, I am very sympathetic to your position. So much so that when In-Q-Tel came knocking a couple of years ago, wanting to talk to us about potential funding, we didn't even bother returning their call. And then I published a public op-ed explaining why we had no interest in working with the Defense/Intelligence/Spook complex. Like you said, there's more at stake than money.
- brilliantcode 10y ago
  I like the cut of your jib. Good to know there's still individuals out there with actual standards and strong moral ground. The defense industry is dirty business. They are in the business of hurting, killing, and causing suffering. I really can't believe he level of support HN is showing. Yesterday's thread and comments about Peter Thiel about being a POS & hypocrite for Palantir. Today, open support of defense industry is front page.
  - gabesullice 10y ago
    Senseless violence is and everywhere should be condemned, but violence itself is not inherently a wrong. The violent actions of the US and Allied forces brought an end to the Holocaust. Violence is sometimes necessary and morally just in self defense and in defense of those who cannot defend themselves. Would you claim that the work of US Coast Guard after Hurricane Katrina was immoral? Is the Coast Guard "in the business of hurting, killing, and causing suffering"? The "support" you see here on HN has less to do with hypocrisy, but instead is condemning your ill-reasoned moral absolutism.
  - 3131s 10y ago
    I also completely share your attitude. And I think the harsh tone of your post was appropriate too, given the circumstances. It should now be crystal clear to everyone why it is simply not ok to bomb endlessly without congressional approval, create massive military / surveillance apparatuses and systems of secret courts with secret laws, run black sites and an enormous network of prisons all while diminishing habeas corpus, perform targeted assassinations on American citizens and foreigners alike, develop 'tactical' nukes, etc. It is crazy to allow those things to happen without speaking up (no matter who is president, Democrats), and nearing evil to directly contribute to the creation of these precedents and apparatuses. Obama is about as objectionable as Trump IMO, but the point is you never know whose hands all of this power will end up in.
Arizhel 10y ago
>Just think back to why you studied computer science or coding. I hope it wasn't to help build spy tools on your friends & families. So what do you think of all the people working at Google, Facebook, and Microsoft? All of them are spying on everyone too. Countless software engineers work in the web space, where much of the money for continued operation comes from advertising, which these days includes tracking and spyware. Honestly, can you point me to anything in Silicon Valley or the tech industry that's actually an ethical business? And even if you find someplace that isn't involved in spying, you get places like Uber where sexual harassment of female employees is encouraged and promoted. AFAICT, if you're worried about doing work that doesn't compromise your morals in any way, and really does contribute positively to society somehow, you'll have to do something like avionics work: low-level code to make critical devices work as safely as possible. But even this has descended a lot from the military realm, so I don't think that's really safe either. You could also work on space probes, but that's a problem too because those are all built by defense contractors and research organizations that get most of their revenue from the DoD. Maybe the automotive sector.
astine 10y ago
You've got me curious. What would you have happen? Sure, I can see calls for stopping drone attacks and for not getting involved in wars. I can also see a reduction of the defense industry generally. But you seem like you'd like to abolish the US military entirely. How would you address the change in the global balance of power that would result? Do you think things would just resettle peacefully?
krylon 10y ago
As a German born in 1980, I guess I am a pacifist by default, but still: Thank you for that post!
fotbr 10y ago
Counterpoint: I did not help the defense industry as a spineless sellout looking for money. I studied computer science because it was interesting. Period. Not because I wanted to change the world, or make a pile of money. I wrote code, as a contractor, for the army, as a way of serving my country. I know that's not a popular stance to take now that pride in one's country is not politically correct, but pride in and service to my country is something that is important to me. Don't mistake pride for blind unwavering support in everything we do like the "USA-USA" chanting folks often have. I'm more than happy to point out where we, as a country, have fucked up. We've done it quite a lot. I have medical conditions that preclude active service. I also have a family tradition of service, both in and out of uniform. Since I could not serve in uniform like my great grandfather did in WWI, my grandfather and his brother did in WWII, or like my uncles did in Korea and Vietnam, I did as my father did and served my country by providing my skills in a time, place, and manner the DoD needed. I'll have no decorations, no glory, no rifle salute at my funeral. I most certainly could have made a boatload more money working elsewhere. Yet, I don't regret it one bit. It was something I felt I needed to do - some will understand, others, I suspect including you, won't ever comprehend War moves humanity forward, but at a terrible price. Since humanity will never eliminate war, when someone has to pay that price, I'd simply rather it not be my countrymen (and now countrywomen). I'm happy you've got values you're willing to stand by and not compromise. I'm happier that I live in a country where you're allowed to call those that serve "immoral" and "spineless piece[s] of shit" with no governmental repercussions or retaliation. I'm happiest that despite my conditions, I found a way to contribute, even if in a minor (and now most likely obsolete) way, to the defense of that nation.
- kakarot 10y ago
  I get where you're coming from. But please also understand that "pride for one's country" and "pride for America" are two separate domains, and that when people lack pride for America it isn't some kind of "political correctness" (I mean seriously, it's still politically incorrect to bash the American government and its activities) It is way, way, way, more complex than that and I'm sure you know this. I know you were just defending what you saw was a wrongful attack against yourself, but you accidentally snuck in attacks on other demographics in the process.
khm 10y ago
I've worked for the DoD on tons of stuff, from operating and maintaining research supercomputers to operating and maintaining M2A2 Bradley fighting vehicles. The DoD is the single largest employer in the world. This sophomoric implication that all three million people live and breathe to slaughter the innocents is downright stupid. I respect your decision not to engage with military operations, but this bizarre ranting isn't productive, and isn't going to alter the course of wars. Consider running for office instead.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

mindcrime 10y ago

I'm sorry you've been downvoted so heavily. FWIW, I am very sympathetic to your position. So much so that when In-Q-Tel came knocking a couple of years ago, wanting to talk to us about potential funding, we didn't even bother returning their call. And then I published a public op-ed explaining why we had no interest in working with the Defense/Intelligence/Spook complex. Like you said, there's more at stake than money.

brilliantcode 10y ago
I like the cut of your jib. Good to know there's still individuals out there with actual standards and strong moral ground. The defense industry is dirty business. They are in the business of hurting, killing, and causing suffering. I really can't believe he level of support HN is showing. Yesterday's thread and comments about Peter Thiel about being a POS & hypocrite for Palantir. Today, open support of defense industry is front page.
- gabesullice 10y ago
  Senseless violence is and everywhere should be condemned, but violence itself is not inherently a wrong. The violent actions of the US and Allied forces brought an end to the Holocaust. Violence is sometimes necessary and morally just in self defense and in defense of those who cannot defend themselves. Would you claim that the work of US Coast Guard after Hurricane Katrina was immoral? Is the Coast Guard "in the business of hurting, killing, and causing suffering"? The "support" you see here on HN has less to do with hypocrisy, but instead is condemning your ill-reasoned moral absolutism.
- 3131s 10y ago
  I also completely share your attitude. And I think the harsh tone of your post was appropriate too, given the circumstances. It should now be crystal clear to everyone why it is simply not ok to bomb endlessly without congressional approval, create massive military / surveillance apparatuses and systems of secret courts with secret laws, run black sites and an enormous network of prisons all while diminishing habeas corpus, perform targeted assassinations on American citizens and foreigners alike, develop 'tactical' nukes, etc. It is crazy to allow those things to happen without speaking up (no matter who is president, Democrats), and nearing evil to directly contribute to the creation of these precedents and apparatuses. Obama is about as objectionable as Trump IMO, but the point is you never know whose hands all of this power will end up in.

Arizhel 10y ago

>Just think back to why you studied computer science or coding. I hope it wasn't to help build spy tools on your friends & families. So what do you think of all the people working at Google, Facebook, and Microsoft? All of them are spying on everyone too. Countless software engineers work in the web space, where much of the money for continued operation comes from advertising, which these days includes tracking and spyware. Honestly, can you point me to anything in Silicon Valley or the tech industry that's actually an ethical business? And even if you find someplace that isn't involved in spying, you get places like Uber where sexual harassment of female employees is encouraged and promoted. AFAICT, if you're worried about doing work that doesn't compromise your morals in any way, and really does contribute positively to society somehow, you'll have to do something like avionics work: low-level code to make critical devices work as safely as possible. But even this has descended a lot from the military realm, so I don't think that's really safe either. You could also work on space probes, but that's a problem too because those are all built by defense contractors and research organizations that get most of their revenue from the DoD. Maybe the automotive sector.

astine 10y ago

You've got me curious. What would you have happen? Sure, I can see calls for stopping drone attacks and for not getting involved in wars. I can also see a reduction of the defense industry generally. But you seem like you'd like to abolish the US military entirely. How would you address the change in the global balance of power that would result? Do you think things would just resettle peacefully?

krylon 10y ago

As a German born in 1980, I guess I am a pacifist by default, but still: Thank you for that post!

fotbr 10y ago

Counterpoint: I did not help the defense industry as a spineless sellout looking for money. I studied computer science because it was interesting. Period. Not because I wanted to change the world, or make a pile of money. I wrote code, as a contractor, for the army, as a way of serving my country. I know that's not a popular stance to take now that pride in one's country is not politically correct, but pride in and service to my country is something that is important to me. Don't mistake pride for blind unwavering support in everything we do like the "USA-USA" chanting folks often have. I'm more than happy to point out where we, as a country, have fucked up. We've done it quite a lot. I have medical conditions that preclude active service. I also have a family tradition of service, both in and out of uniform. Since I could not serve in uniform like my great grandfather did in WWI, my grandfather and his brother did in WWII, or like my uncles did in Korea and Vietnam, I did as my father did and served my country by providing my skills in a time, place, and manner the DoD needed. I'll have no decorations, no glory, no rifle salute at my funeral. I most certainly could have made a boatload more money working elsewhere. Yet, I don't regret it one bit. It was something I felt I needed to do - some will understand, others, I suspect including you, won't ever comprehend War moves humanity forward, but at a terrible price. Since humanity will never eliminate war, when someone has to pay that price, I'd simply rather it not be my countrymen (and now countrywomen). I'm happy you've got values you're willing to stand by and not compromise. I'm happier that I live in a country where you're allowed to call those that serve "immoral" and "spineless piece[s] of shit" with no governmental repercussions or retaliation. I'm happiest that despite my conditions, I found a way to contribute, even if in a minor (and now most likely obsolete) way, to the defense of that nation.

kakarot 10y ago
I get where you're coming from. But please also understand that "pride for one's country" and "pride for America" are two separate domains, and that when people lack pride for America it isn't some kind of "political correctness" (I mean seriously, it's still politically incorrect to bash the American government and its activities) It is way, way, way, more complex than that and I'm sure you know this. I know you were just defending what you saw was a wrongful attack against yourself, but you accidentally snuck in attacks on other demographics in the process.

khm 10y ago

I've worked for the DoD on tons of stuff, from operating and maintaining research supercomputers to operating and maintaining M2A2 Bradley fighting vehicles. The DoD is the single largest employer in the world. This sophomoric implication that all three million people live and breathe to slaughter the innocents is downright stupid. I respect your decision not to engage with military operations, but this bizarre ranting isn't productive, and isn't going to alter the course of wars. Consider running for office instead.