4 ms·

Bottom line from the article, it's costing an estimated $19,358 per student per year to educate, or maybe we should say fail to educate, in the NYC public schoo

Bottom line from the article, it's costing an estimated $19,358 per student per year to educate, or maybe we should say fail to educate, in the NYC public school system. By comparison, average private school tuition is $6600 and Catholic school tuition is $4254. Spending is probably not the problem.

patio11 16y ago
I agree with the point you are making, but those numbers are not directly comparable. Catholic schools in NYC are heavily underwritten by their local parishes and secondarily by the archdiocese, and they also have non-trivial funding from a variety of government programs for providing social services.
- telemachos 16y ago
  Beyond that, there are fewer and fewer parish Catholic schools in NYC. (The parish schools have much lower rates. There are also independent Catholic schools (ones run by boards rather than the archdiocese directly) that charge tuitions in the 25,000-35,000 range. Those aren't closing down so quickly.)
- jbellis 16y ago
  I would think it would be possible to find spending-per-pupil for catholic schools to compare apples to apples. Quick google says catholic schools are financially "twice as efficient spending less money per pupil" as public schools: http://www.gothamgazette.com/iotw/catholicschools/ http://www.gothamgazette.com/iotw/catholicschools/ From 2002, so you can probably do better.
archgoon 16y ago
Trust me, teachers in the public schools aren't being paid 800,000 dollars to teach 40 students. Most of the money goes into the bureaucracy that comes when you have much larger class sizes and much more diverse student populations. (not claiming it couldn't be smaller) The proposed accountability changes aren't going to change that.
telemachos 16y ago
Your numbers are misleading in one key respect: In Manhattan, private school tuition is far higher than that average (more like $25,000-35,000). Link: http://privateschool.about.com/od/schoolsny/qt/nyctop.htm http://privateschool.about.com/od/schoolsny/qt/nyctop.htm That said, the public schools in NYC are (mostly) a disaster, and it's disgusting to me (as an NYC taxpayer) that their return on investment, so to speak, is so poor. (Even the good schools will commonly have class sizes of 35-40 students. Lots of long writing assignments for high school students? Not likely...)
- roboneal 16y ago
  Your citation is about the top 10 private schools in Manhattan with 1:4 - 1:10 student teacher ratios is a bit misleading. First NYC is larger than Manhattan and there are plenty of schools with 20-25:1 teacher ratios that would provide a better comparison.
  - telemachos 16y ago
    You are right about NYC being larger than Manhattan. The citation itself was the first I could find, simply to verify the outrageous sounding numbers. At private schools in Manhattan, numbers of 25,000-30,000 are now "normal". I don't know the rates for schools in the outer boroughs, but I'm willing to bet that Brooklyn rates are right behind or equal to Manhattan rates. My larger point was just that comparing NYC public school to average private school rates was off-center. Also, just fyi, no matter what they say, those private schools do not offer a 1:4-1:10 student:teacher ratio. 1:12-1:20 is far more common now by high school.
    - roboneal 16y ago
      Hey - it's your article citation - did you even read it? That list contains TOP schools some of which were founded in the 1600 and 1700s and who are so selective that some reject 80% of applicants. That was not a typical list of private schools. And I actually believe their claims of teacher ratios -- at least on that list. While I accept, NYC private schools cost more than the national average - they are essentially charging taxpayers $20K a year to not educate kids.
parfe 16y ago
>By comparison, average private school tuition is $6600 and Catholic school tuition is $4254. Mentally handicapped, ESL, and problem students are easily booted from or denied entry to private schools.
- inscitekjeff 16y ago
  What is your point? They don't belong in public schools either.
  - tptacek 16y ago
    Some of them don't, but what he's really referring to are students with IEPs --- and those run the gamut from children who genuinely need constant individualized attention to kids with no medically diagnosable problems whatsoever. My son (who is and will remain in public school, though we live in a wealthy suburb and so enjoy de facto private schooling) had trouble socializing in 1st grade and was "diagnosed" by a school functionary as having an "autism spectrum disorder". After consulting with my mom, a full-time LD/BD teacher in the Chicago Public Schools, we argued for over a month against assigning an IEP to him. "You need the IEP to get occupational therapy services" (read: handwriting lessons). Yeah, and, we can count on never getting rid of the IEP, or getting him into any selective program anywhere. (He's concluding 5th grade now, and besides issues getting his homework in, he's doing great. Late bloomer.) The fact that private schools can be selective about students and can expel them virtually without cause is not a spurious concern. It's a very real issue.
  - iskander 16y ago
    Publicly funded education...except for those with disabilities or recent immigrants?
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
tptacek 16y ago
If I read the article correctly, simply to keep most students at grade level, charter schools spend over $18,000 per student.

patio11 16y ago

I agree with the point you are making, but those numbers are not directly comparable. Catholic schools in NYC are heavily underwritten by their local parishes and secondarily by the archdiocese, and they also have non-trivial funding from a variety of government programs for providing social services.

telemachos 16y ago
Beyond that, there are fewer and fewer parish Catholic schools in NYC. (The parish schools have much lower rates. There are also independent Catholic schools (ones run by boards rather than the archdiocese directly) that charge tuitions in the 25,000-35,000 range. Those aren't closing down so quickly.)
jbellis 16y ago
I would think it would be possible to find spending-per-pupil for catholic schools to compare apples to apples. Quick google says catholic schools are financially "twice as efficient spending less money per pupil" as public schools: http://www.gothamgazette.com/iotw/catholicschools/ http://www.gothamgazette.com/iotw/catholicschools/ From 2002, so you can probably do better.

archgoon 16y ago

Trust me, teachers in the public schools aren't being paid 800,000 dollars to teach 40 students. Most of the money goes into the bureaucracy that comes when you have much larger class sizes and much more diverse student populations. (not claiming it couldn't be smaller) The proposed accountability changes aren't going to change that.

telemachos 16y ago

Your numbers are misleading in one key respect: In Manhattan, private school tuition is far higher than that average (more like $25,000-35,000). Link: http://privateschool.about.com/od/schoolsny/qt/nyctop.htm http://privateschool.about.com/od/schoolsny/qt/nyctop.htm That said, the public schools in NYC are (mostly) a disaster, and it's disgusting to me (as an NYC taxpayer) that their return on investment, so to speak, is so poor. (Even the good schools will commonly have class sizes of 35-40 students. Lots of long writing assignments for high school students? Not likely...)

roboneal 16y ago
Your citation is about the top 10 private schools in Manhattan with 1:4 - 1:10 student teacher ratios is a bit misleading. First NYC is larger than Manhattan and there are plenty of schools with 20-25:1 teacher ratios that would provide a better comparison.
- telemachos 16y ago
  You are right about NYC being larger than Manhattan. The citation itself was the first I could find, simply to verify the outrageous sounding numbers. At private schools in Manhattan, numbers of 25,000-30,000 are now "normal". I don't know the rates for schools in the outer boroughs, but I'm willing to bet that Brooklyn rates are right behind or equal to Manhattan rates. My larger point was just that comparing NYC public school to average private school rates was off-center. Also, just fyi, no matter what they say, those private schools do not offer a 1:4-1:10 student:teacher ratio. 1:12-1:20 is far more common now by high school.
  - roboneal 16y ago
    Hey - it's your article citation - did you even read it? That list contains TOP schools some of which were founded in the 1600 and 1700s and who are so selective that some reject 80% of applicants. That was not a typical list of private schools. And I actually believe their claims of teacher ratios -- at least on that list. While I accept, NYC private schools cost more than the national average - they are essentially charging taxpayers $20K a year to not educate kids.

parfe 16y ago

>By comparison, average private school tuition is $6600 and Catholic school tuition is $4254. Mentally handicapped, ESL, and problem students are easily booted from or denied entry to private schools.

inscitekjeff 16y ago
What is your point? They don't belong in public schools either.
- tptacek 16y ago
  Some of them don't, but what he's really referring to are students with IEPs --- and those run the gamut from children who genuinely need constant individualized attention to kids with no medically diagnosable problems whatsoever. My son (who is and will remain in public school, though we live in a wealthy suburb and so enjoy de facto private schooling) had trouble socializing in 1st grade and was "diagnosed" by a school functionary as having an "autism spectrum disorder". After consulting with my mom, a full-time LD/BD teacher in the Chicago Public Schools, we argued for over a month against assigning an IEP to him. "You need the IEP to get occupational therapy services" (read: handwriting lessons). Yeah, and, we can count on never getting rid of the IEP, or getting him into any selective program anywhere. (He's concluding 5th grade now, and besides issues getting his homework in, he's doing great. Late bloomer.) The fact that private schools can be selective about students and can expel them virtually without cause is not a spurious concern. It's a very real issue.
- iskander 16y ago
  Publicly funded education...except for those with disabilities or recent immigrants?
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]

tptacek 16y ago

If I read the article correctly, simply to keep most students at grade level, charter schools spend over $18,000 per student.