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>You first have to accept them to check if they actually qualify for refugee status, those that don't qualify don't get the status and thus have to leave the co

>You first have to accept them to check if they actually qualify for refugee status, those that don't qualify don't get the status and thus have to leave the country. Then what? THEN they go back to the border and they create their own communities? How can you __actually__ make that many people leave? >Do you seriously think creating these kinds of "slums" would be beneficial to anybody? No, but the fact is these refugees are not able to contribute to the societies they come to in a meaningful way. For instance, in Germany only 1 in 10,000 refugees that arrived last year are employed. Is accepting a large quantity of people, most of whom do not have the kind of formal education required to be successful in a highly developed economy, beneficial to anybody? What's the end-game for this?

freeflight 10y ago
>Then what? THEN they go back to the border and they create their own communities? How can you __actually__ make that many people leave? I never claimed the system is perfect because there is no perfect system for such complex problems. >No, but the fact is these refugees are not able to contribute to the societies they come to in a meaningful way. For instance, in Germany only 1 in 10,000 refugees that arrived last year are employed. That's because they are legally not allowed to work until their status has been cleared. It's not a matter of them "not wanting to work", it's a matter of not having the right status to work. The other alternative, one that many populist right-wingers are advocating for, is forcing them to work even when their refugee status is still not cleared up. But that would actually wreck havoc on labor wages because then you'd suddenly have created a whole new class of people that would work far below average wages just to "justify" their stay in the country. Do I really need to spell out what that would mean for the average low-income worker in the country? Average wages would be pushed even lower than they already are, which has already been a growing problem in Germany for over a decade. There are no easy solutions to any of this, people who claim there are easy solutions are simply deluding themselves about the long-term ramifications of their solutions. And no: Just "not letting them in" also ain't no solution, these people won't simply "disappear" just because you hide them behind big fences and walls. No matter how you frame it, "globalizations" and freedom of movement has it's advantages and brings a lot of positive changes. As somebody who crossed the "Iron curtain" several times, when it still existed, I hardly wish those times back. It would be a step back for Europe and humanity as a whole. Fences and walls don't solve problems, they only compartmentalize them.
- madmax96 10y ago
  >I never claimed the system is perfect because there is no perfect system for such complex problems. Agreed. But my real problem here is that there doesn't seem to be any sort of plan. There are many questions that need to be answered, among these: 1. Should a country accept refugees? If yes, how many? 2. Are these refugees permanent residents? If not, what is the timeline of their departure? 3. How do we integrate thousands of people with very diverse backgrounds into our system? >That's because they are legally not allowed to work until their status has been cleared. Finding concrete numbers on this issue is surprisingly difficult. I have found from a few different sources that only 13% of in-status refugees have found work. Again, there are real challenges in integrating refugees, and there is no clear plan for how this is to be accomplished. >these people won't simply "disappear" just because you hide them behind big fences and walls. Agreed, and something should be done to help them. But I think that the default shouldn't be to let them in. That's foolhardy, especially when governments don't have clear policy answering the questions that I have asked. In the absence of a clear plan regarding the status of refugees, I can't help but feel that it is irresponsible to accept all. It will require real, concentrated efforts by a government to make a refugee system work in the interests of both refugees and citizens, although I agree that it is an effort worth making. I respect your experiences with free movement. We agree that we don't desire for "iron curtains" to be re-established. Coming up with an approach to these problems that works is beyond my skill set -- I only hope to see that those who come up with possible systems are able to clearly articulate their details, strengths and weaknesses, and allow the people to make a choice from a selection of systems. EDIT: I am also going to add that I am aware that some of these questions have definite legal answers, but given that there is so much turbulence and desire to modify existing legal systems that predate the current refugees-crisis, there is a lack of certainty and dialog regarding policy designed to face today's issues.

freeflight 10y ago

>Then what? THEN they go back to the border and they create their own communities? How can you __actually__ make that many people leave? I never claimed the system is perfect because there is no perfect system for such complex problems. >No, but the fact is these refugees are not able to contribute to the societies they come to in a meaningful way. For instance, in Germany only 1 in 10,000 refugees that arrived last year are employed. That's because they are legally not allowed to work until their status has been cleared. It's not a matter of them "not wanting to work", it's a matter of not having the right status to work. The other alternative, one that many populist right-wingers are advocating for, is forcing them to work even when their refugee status is still not cleared up. But that would actually wreck havoc on labor wages because then you'd suddenly have created a whole new class of people that would work far below average wages just to "justify" their stay in the country. Do I really need to spell out what that would mean for the average low-income worker in the country? Average wages would be pushed even lower than they already are, which has already been a growing problem in Germany for over a decade. There are no easy solutions to any of this, people who claim there are easy solutions are simply deluding themselves about the long-term ramifications of their solutions. And no: Just "not letting them in" also ain't no solution, these people won't simply "disappear" just because you hide them behind big fences and walls. No matter how you frame it, "globalizations" and freedom of movement has it's advantages and brings a lot of positive changes. As somebody who crossed the "Iron curtain" several times, when it still existed, I hardly wish those times back. It would be a step back for Europe and humanity as a whole. Fences and walls don't solve problems, they only compartmentalize them.

madmax96 10y ago
>I never claimed the system is perfect because there is no perfect system for such complex problems. Agreed. But my real problem here is that there doesn't seem to be any sort of plan. There are many questions that need to be answered, among these: 1. Should a country accept refugees? If yes, how many? 2. Are these refugees permanent residents? If not, what is the timeline of their departure? 3. How do we integrate thousands of people with very diverse backgrounds into our system? >That's because they are legally not allowed to work until their status has been cleared. Finding concrete numbers on this issue is surprisingly difficult. I have found from a few different sources that only 13% of in-status refugees have found work. Again, there are real challenges in integrating refugees, and there is no clear plan for how this is to be accomplished. >these people won't simply "disappear" just because you hide them behind big fences and walls. Agreed, and something should be done to help them. But I think that the default shouldn't be to let them in. That's foolhardy, especially when governments don't have clear policy answering the questions that I have asked. In the absence of a clear plan regarding the status of refugees, I can't help but feel that it is irresponsible to accept all. It will require real, concentrated efforts by a government to make a refugee system work in the interests of both refugees and citizens, although I agree that it is an effort worth making. I respect your experiences with free movement. We agree that we don't desire for "iron curtains" to be re-established. Coming up with an approach to these problems that works is beyond my skill set -- I only hope to see that those who come up with possible systems are able to clearly articulate their details, strengths and weaknesses, and allow the people to make a choice from a selection of systems. EDIT: I am also going to add that I am aware that some of these questions have definite legal answers, but given that there is so much turbulence and desire to modify existing legal systems that predate the current refugees-crisis, there is a lack of certainty and dialog regarding policy designed to face today's issues.