2 ms·

How do you decide which things are really bad, and no amount of greater good justifies them? As a society, we've made the decision that traffic regulation, gun

How do you decide which things are really bad, and no amount of greater good justifies them? As a society, we've made the decision that traffic regulation, gun regulation or preventing the sale of loose cigarettes does justify the police gunning people down or choking them to death. (Note that after Eric Garner and Philando Castille, no one advocated eliminating the rules that got them killed.) So why is an unpleasant work environment somehow one of those things that are unjustified no matter what?

mfringel 10y ago
Allow me to rephrase: "So why is a hostile work environment somehow one of those things that are unjustified no matter what?" Words matter.
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  Ok. Why is a hostile work environment unjustified no matter what, but strangling people to death in the pursuit of causes like cigarette regulation isn't?
  - rz2k 10y ago
    This seems like a really strange argument to double down on. There is an overlap of people who discount harrassment based on salary, and people who discount fatal brutality by citing an unimportant crime. Instead it's the same outlook on how society should work that opposes both abuses. While people can choose to work harder on one problem, ranking them and deciding one should be ignored is a good tactic for insuring there isn't a critical mass of people fighting any injustice. Furthermore, the type of people that want to invest in companies that decrease systemic racism and harassment experienced by their riders should also be concerned about similar problems at places closer to home. Framing these abuses as though they are not all different manifestations of failing to recognize other people's humanity on some level really undermines any progress.
    - yummyfajitas 10y ago
      I'm not making an argument, I'm merely questioning a philosophical claim I think is probably wrong. Specifically, if you think (1) "There are things in the world that are really bad, and no amount of greater good justifies them. Harassment is one of them." but you also favor cigarette regulation, then you must implicitly think the inevitable shooting/strangling people/other violence is NOT one of those things that are "really bad and no amount of greater good justifies them". Or alternatively, the stated principle (1) is not your real justification and merely a post-hoc rationalization. I suspected the latter. But I was wrong - as it turns out geofft is internally consistent and also opposes cigarette regulation, firearm regulation, and all the other rules who's enforcement involves doing things that are "really bad and no amount of greater good justifies them". https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13725372 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13725372
geofft 10y ago
As you might imagine, I also disagree with society's implicit position in the cases you mention.
- Arizhel 10y ago
  I don't. Nothing's changed, and nothing's been done to those officers. Society has implicitly accepted these actions as justified.
  - geofft 10y ago
    It's possible my statement was unclear: my disagreement was "Society, you are wrong," not "Your claim about society is wrong". Regardless, this is whatabouttery. It's true that we have much more serious problems in the world than workplace harassment, like poverty and slavery and famine. That doesn't mean that the less serious problems aren't still problems.

mfringel 10y ago

Allow me to rephrase: "So why is a hostile work environment somehow one of those things that are unjustified no matter what?" Words matter.

yummyfajitas 10y ago
Ok. Why is a hostile work environment unjustified no matter what, but strangling people to death in the pursuit of causes like cigarette regulation isn't?
- rz2k 10y ago
  This seems like a really strange argument to double down on. There is an overlap of people who discount harrassment based on salary, and people who discount fatal brutality by citing an unimportant crime. Instead it's the same outlook on how society should work that opposes both abuses. While people can choose to work harder on one problem, ranking them and deciding one should be ignored is a good tactic for insuring there isn't a critical mass of people fighting any injustice. Furthermore, the type of people that want to invest in companies that decrease systemic racism and harassment experienced by their riders should also be concerned about similar problems at places closer to home. Framing these abuses as though they are not all different manifestations of failing to recognize other people's humanity on some level really undermines any progress.
  - yummyfajitas 10y ago
    I'm not making an argument, I'm merely questioning a philosophical claim I think is probably wrong. Specifically, if you think (1) "There are things in the world that are really bad, and no amount of greater good justifies them. Harassment is one of them." but you also favor cigarette regulation, then you must implicitly think the inevitable shooting/strangling people/other violence is NOT one of those things that are "really bad and no amount of greater good justifies them". Or alternatively, the stated principle (1) is not your real justification and merely a post-hoc rationalization. I suspected the latter. But I was wrong - as it turns out geofft is internally consistent and also opposes cigarette regulation, firearm regulation, and all the other rules who's enforcement involves doing things that are "really bad and no amount of greater good justifies them". https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13725372 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13725372

geofft 10y ago

As you might imagine, I also disagree with society's implicit position in the cases you mention.

Arizhel 10y ago
I don't. Nothing's changed, and nothing's been done to those officers. Society has implicitly accepted these actions as justified.
- geofft 10y ago
  It's possible my statement was unclear: my disagreement was "Society, you are wrong," not "Your claim about society is wrong". Regardless, this is whatabouttery. It's true that we have much more serious problems in the world than workplace harassment, like poverty and slavery and famine. That doesn't mean that the less serious problems aren't still problems.