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"the main difference in terms of criminal activity between immigrants and others in the population was due to differences in the socioeconomic conditions in whi

"the main difference in terms of criminal activity between immigrants and others in the population was due to differences in the socioeconomic conditions in which they grew up in Sweden." This is a classic red-herring. 'They were poor therefore they have bad behaviours'. The failure of the logic is the assumption of correlation/causation. One might argue that 'bad behaviour will lead one to being poor'. I have no doubt that immigrants from Somalia will have a harder time than 'Sven Swede' growing up. At the same time, there are some truly terrible behaviours among specific immigrant groups. This is the hardest part: the pro and anti immigrant camps are speaking past each other. Important note: For some reason, ethnic minorities in Europe are considerably more marginalized then they are in the US - it's completely different. Europe has a 'strong social safety net' - and 'social policy' of welfare etc. - BUT - they have very strong sense of ethnic identity, and very close social circles. A young Somalian may have very few Swedish friends. In the US - people are far more gregarious and open personally. It's nothing to see a table of people of different ethnic backgrounds - but the social safety net is usually much weaker, no health insurance etc.. I live in Montreal, we have a good chunk of Muslims. They don't look too 'out of place'. You can't tell they are Muslim by looking. They could be Indian, Southern Italian, Greek. But go to Belgium - the various Muslim communities are distinct, and ethnic identity is obvious. I've never seen a Burqa in Montreal, and Hijab not too often. In Belgium they are all over. Muslims live in 'broad areas' in Montreal, but in Belgium very specific communities. It's a little bit of a mystery to me but I think it has everything to do with 'very traditional and conservative' social culture in Europe - even though paradoxically they are 'intellectually liberal'. Example: if you drink with a nice, well educated, open minded and kind Belgian - you may hear an 'African joke'. It's not considered as racist as it would be in America. Yet the Belgian will likely be more supportive of giving refuge and social services to the Africans than the average American. It's weird. Sweden has a notorious degree of censorship in their press - they self-censor to control information in terms of what they 'deem is best for Sweden'. They will absolutely suppress information if it may cause some populist sentiment. It's just part of their culture. The problem, of course, is that by suppressing real dialogue, then the loudest and craziest right-wing voices are the one's that get hard, and they cause a fuss, which is bad, and it may come to a breaking point. I suggest that more transparency on the issues would be better for all involved.

kohanz 10y ago
This post had a lot of thought and effort put into it. I have no idea why it's downvoted. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with the premise, it's put forward in an excellent manner and that's what we should strive for here: quality discussion.
Broken_Hippo 10y ago
It really isn't like that everywhere in North America. Chinatowns, for example. Heck, I lived in a little town of 3000 people and it had a "mexican" part of town. I lost friends for dating outside my own percieved race. Folks seperate based on the color of their skin and background quite often. It isn't that folks don't break from the molds, but they are definitely there. The little town didn't have many Muslims, so that wasn't as common, but it did have a fair amount of Mennonite communities in the area. Women with heads covered and conservative, long-sleeve dresses even during the hot summer months and men with beards. They generally kept to themselves, most likely due to cultural similarities. Some areas in the US have some section of Jewish coursts that handle some things and conservative Jews have a network within their communities (friend of mine, American, nearly went through an arranged marriage through them). These are probably much like many of the conservative Muslim communities you spotted - they are simply a different sort of conservative religion. On the other hand, the majority of immigrant Muslims went to language class with are fairly progressive women. Lawyers and nurses and such. They stand out about as much as I do here in Norway.
- edblarney 10y ago
  "It really isn't like that everywhere in North America" I totally agree. America is a big place, so is Europe. It's varied. But I would say, on the whole that EU is far more 'enclave-ish' than the US. In fact, Europe is a big patchwork of ethnic enclaves. America is not. People identify a lot less with their identity. And yes, for sure, some people, i.e. Orthodox Jews, Mennonites etc. are different.
1_2__3 10y ago
> In the US - people are far more gregarious and open personally. Can I just share my belief that this is polite fiction? It's certainly the view of America that we Americans have for ourselves, but can you honestly say you see evidence of it in day-to-day-life - and can you compare it to western Europe? In my personal experience no, EU migrants are no more marginalized than they are here, and no, American migrants are no more "integrated". Vast swaths of SoCal and Texas is basically Mexico. Huge parts of Florida are basically Cuba. The Somali influx in Minnesota is real and highly separated from the rest of white society there. You don't need to look for ghettos to find large areas of extremely insular immigrants, often 2nd or 3rd generation still with no intention of or interest in immigrating in any sense other than physical location. I'm not even commenting on if it's a good or bad thing, but ultimately I don't think we've EVER been the melting pot we claim to be, certainly the evidence around us doesn't suggest we are.

kohanz 10y ago

This post had a lot of thought and effort put into it. I have no idea why it's downvoted. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with the premise, it's put forward in an excellent manner and that's what we should strive for here: quality discussion.

Broken_Hippo 10y ago

It really isn't like that everywhere in North America. Chinatowns, for example. Heck, I lived in a little town of 3000 people and it had a "mexican" part of town. I lost friends for dating outside my own percieved race. Folks seperate based on the color of their skin and background quite often. It isn't that folks don't break from the molds, but they are definitely there. The little town didn't have many Muslims, so that wasn't as common, but it did have a fair amount of Mennonite communities in the area. Women with heads covered and conservative, long-sleeve dresses even during the hot summer months and men with beards. They generally kept to themselves, most likely due to cultural similarities. Some areas in the US have some section of Jewish coursts that handle some things and conservative Jews have a network within their communities (friend of mine, American, nearly went through an arranged marriage through them). These are probably much like many of the conservative Muslim communities you spotted - they are simply a different sort of conservative religion. On the other hand, the majority of immigrant Muslims went to language class with are fairly progressive women. Lawyers and nurses and such. They stand out about as much as I do here in Norway.

edblarney 10y ago
"It really isn't like that everywhere in North America" I totally agree. America is a big place, so is Europe. It's varied. But I would say, on the whole that EU is far more 'enclave-ish' than the US. In fact, Europe is a big patchwork of ethnic enclaves. America is not. People identify a lot less with their identity. And yes, for sure, some people, i.e. Orthodox Jews, Mennonites etc. are different.

1_2__3 10y ago

> In the US - people are far more gregarious and open personally. Can I just share my belief that this is polite fiction? It's certainly the view of America that we Americans have for ourselves, but can you honestly say you see evidence of it in day-to-day-life - and can you compare it to western Europe? In my personal experience no, EU migrants are no more marginalized than they are here, and no, American migrants are no more "integrated". Vast swaths of SoCal and Texas is basically Mexico. Huge parts of Florida are basically Cuba. The Somali influx in Minnesota is real and highly separated from the rest of white society there. You don't need to look for ghettos to find large areas of extremely insular immigrants, often 2nd or 3rd generation still with no intention of or interest in immigrating in any sense other than physical location. I'm not even commenting on if it's a good or bad thing, but ultimately I don't think we've EVER been the melting pot we claim to be, certainly the evidence around us doesn't suggest we are.