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The bottom line is, other people don't have the attitude you do about online privacy. That explains it all. And maybe they didn't think about it, or they trust

The bottom line is, other people don't have the attitude you do about online privacy. That explains it all. And maybe they didn't think about it, or they trusted it, and they just woke up and realized how much dirt there is to put together on them. They weren't consciously deciding that online = open. They're realizing that these free "tools" aren't tools at all; they are big, nasty companies. And their user data is the product. Nobody likes waking up and realizing they're a product. Also, trends come in waves. The 'privacy' thing comes in waves. The 'openness' thing comes in waves. Everything in life is a pendulum, from boom & bust economies to the level of religious fundamentalism. Nobody seems to put that all together, but these waves of trends are largely BS, almost totally ineffective, nothing will happen, and it will disappear, only to reappear again in a year or two when the next big co. sells its user data without warning.

jraines 16y ago
Actually, I'd say most people do have the attitude he has about privacy, which is what makes the wave of privacy hand wringing mildly annoying. Most regular users of Facebook or Google couldn't care less. I can't back this up with data, but I'd bet on it. Even if its a lot in absolute numbers, the materiality threshold is really high. If ever HN user and every techcrunch reader quit facebook tomorrow, I doubt that would be enough to provoke a drastic course correction from fb.
- brazzy 16y ago
  Most users simply don't realize how little privacy they have online and what consequences it can have. They're relying on social instincts that tell them that only the people they percieve as being present can hear what they say, and that it might get passed on, but thereby becomes hearsay and gossip that can be denied. They may know intellectually that online statements are much less ephemeral and private than spoken words, but the act based on their instincts, not their knowledge.
  - NZ_Matt 16y ago
    How do you know that most Facebook users think like that? I believe most users have a better understanding than you are giving them credit for.
    - brazzy 16y ago
      http://www.geekologie.com/2009/08/how_to_lose_your_job_via_faceb.php http://www.geekologie.com/2009/08/how_to_lose_your_job_via_f... http://www.geekologie.com/2008/10/moron_calls_in_sick_busted_on.php http://www.geekologie.com/2008/10/moron_calls_in_sick_busted... http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/how_google_failed_internet_meme.php http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/how_google_failed_inter... Anecdotal evidence for sure, but my main point wasn't even about what users think, but about them acting based on social instincts without giving it much thought.
    - kareemm 16y ago
      have you ever talked to normal people about technology. not to teach them, but to understand how they think? you could figure out how accurate your belief is. geeks take the basics for granted. For example: here are normal people answering the question "What is a web browser": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4MwTvtyrUQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4MwTvtyrUQ. talk to normal ppl about IP addresses, privacy settings, open graph, API, etc etc and their eyes glaze over. in my experience, most of them have no clue. (not because they're dumb, mind you - it's because they don't live and work online like most of us.)
buro9 16y ago
I don't think the author has the attitude he says he does. No-one truly can stand by the statement that everything they put online they expected to be public at some point. So, your banking is online, your email is online. Clearly you expect some things to not be public. The question is about where that line is and whether someone moves it without your say so. People would indeed freak at Google and banks if they revealed what they promised they wouldn't. And that is the issue with facebook, they told people they wouldn't share this stuff and so people used facebook to tell their close friends stuff and facebook moved the line, repeatedly.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- derefr 16y ago
  You're not putting your banking online—you're accessing a private service on an individual computer using a cryptographically-secure protocol. That's basically no different than having a direct hard line to the company's servers; there's no "Internet" involved, and therefore no "public" involved. Email is public. It is hugely vulnerable to MITM attacks at every step of the process, not in the least by the postmasters of Alice and Bob's companies or ISPs, both or which are subject to police search as well as social engineering under the guise of police search. Unless you create a secure channel over email, you should always treat everything you say in an email as if, well, it was posted on your facebook wall. No sending email to your human trafficking buddies, in other words.
  - logic 16y ago
    I'm late to replying to this, but your response is the reason why many geeks don't get the problem here. None of what you just said makes any sense to my sister or my wife's aunt, both heavy Facebook users. "Cryptographically-secure", "MITM", and "social engineering" are meaningless phrases to them. They hear the word "email", and they think, "the Internet version of the letter I used to stick in a mailbox", and they make assumptions about the level of privacy their communications enjoy. They log on to Facebook, see a list of updates from people they know, and immediately have a feeling of close-knit community; it simply doesn't occur to many Facebook users that something like YourOpenBook could possibly exist. You and I understand and appreciate the subtleties of online communication. They don't.

jraines 16y ago

Actually, I'd say most people do have the attitude he has about privacy, which is what makes the wave of privacy hand wringing mildly annoying. Most regular users of Facebook or Google couldn't care less. I can't back this up with data, but I'd bet on it. Even if its a lot in absolute numbers, the materiality threshold is really high. If ever HN user and every techcrunch reader quit facebook tomorrow, I doubt that would be enough to provoke a drastic course correction from fb.

brazzy 16y ago
Most users simply don't realize how little privacy they have online and what consequences it can have. They're relying on social instincts that tell them that only the people they percieve as being present can hear what they say, and that it might get passed on, but thereby becomes hearsay and gossip that can be denied. They may know intellectually that online statements are much less ephemeral and private than spoken words, but the act based on their instincts, not their knowledge.
- NZ_Matt 16y ago
  How do you know that most Facebook users think like that? I believe most users have a better understanding than you are giving them credit for.
  - brazzy 16y ago
    http://www.geekologie.com/2009/08/how_to_lose_your_job_via_faceb.php http://www.geekologie.com/2009/08/how_to_lose_your_job_via_f... http://www.geekologie.com/2008/10/moron_calls_in_sick_busted_on.php http://www.geekologie.com/2008/10/moron_calls_in_sick_busted... http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/how_google_failed_internet_meme.php http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/how_google_failed_inter... Anecdotal evidence for sure, but my main point wasn't even about what users think, but about them acting based on social instincts without giving it much thought.
  - kareemm 16y ago
    have you ever talked to normal people about technology. not to teach them, but to understand how they think? you could figure out how accurate your belief is. geeks take the basics for granted. For example: here are normal people answering the question "What is a web browser": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4MwTvtyrUQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4MwTvtyrUQ. talk to normal ppl about IP addresses, privacy settings, open graph, API, etc etc and their eyes glaze over. in my experience, most of them have no clue. (not because they're dumb, mind you - it's because they don't live and work online like most of us.)

buro9 16y ago

I don't think the author has the attitude he says he does. No-one truly can stand by the statement that everything they put online they expected to be public at some point. So, your banking is online, your email is online. Clearly you expect some things to not be public. The question is about where that line is and whether someone moves it without your say so. People would indeed freak at Google and banks if they revealed what they promised they wouldn't. And that is the issue with facebook, they told people they wouldn't share this stuff and so people used facebook to tell their close friends stuff and facebook moved the line, repeatedly.

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
derefr 16y ago
You're not putting your banking online—you're accessing a private service on an individual computer using a cryptographically-secure protocol. That's basically no different than having a direct hard line to the company's servers; there's no "Internet" involved, and therefore no "public" involved. Email is public. It is hugely vulnerable to MITM attacks at every step of the process, not in the least by the postmasters of Alice and Bob's companies or ISPs, both or which are subject to police search as well as social engineering under the guise of police search. Unless you create a secure channel over email, you should always treat everything you say in an email as if, well, it was posted on your facebook wall. No sending email to your human trafficking buddies, in other words.
- logic 16y ago
  I'm late to replying to this, but your response is the reason why many geeks don't get the problem here. None of what you just said makes any sense to my sister or my wife's aunt, both heavy Facebook users. "Cryptographically-secure", "MITM", and "social engineering" are meaningless phrases to them. They hear the word "email", and they think, "the Internet version of the letter I used to stick in a mailbox", and they make assumptions about the level of privacy their communications enjoy. They log on to Facebook, see a list of updates from people they know, and immediately have a feeling of close-knit community; it simply doesn't occur to many Facebook users that something like YourOpenBook could possibly exist. You and I understand and appreciate the subtleties of online communication. They don't.