4 ms·

> It's totally irrelevant that the crimes has decreased. That depends. If you are looking for excuses for racism, it obviously is not relevant. But if you clai

> It's totally irrelevant that the crimes has decreased. That depends. If you are looking for excuses for racism, it obviously is not relevant. But if you claim that the Swedish society has turned dangerous because of the immigrant crimes, it should be highly relevant for the discussion.

dep_b 10y ago
> If you are looking for excuses for racism Why is the conclusion that immigrants dominate the statistics of violence against women racist? I don't think there are many people who believe the cause of this statistic is genetic. I thought women should be safe regardless the perpetrator but there is this weird dual standard where the whole company Uber (correctly!) gets the blame because of it's douchebag culture even when some of it's key executives don't directly partake in denigrating women, yet when migrants dominate negative statistics in far worse crimes against women all of a sudden imagined racism is the worst crime instead of actually abuse of women. I think the problem with that particular violent subset of the Muslim subset of immigrants is exactly what you try to blame other people for: right-wing asshole mysogonist gay jew or "soft men" (i.e. respectful mostly left wing so yes you) hating retards. With absolutely no ground for respect let alone a chance of a better life in a modern society. And you should fight them with the same energy you fight "native" right wing hate groups. People fleeing from that kind of violent and oppressive people should not go to Sweden only to be confronted by exactly the same people they were trying to get away of.
- beefield 10y ago
  > Why is the conclusion that immigrants dominate the statistics of violence against women racist? I don't think there are many people who believe the cause of this statistic is genetic. First, if the very first sentence of wikipedia article of racism[1] tells that racism can be against a race or ethnic group, it should be accepted that the word "racism" is used not only to genetically different groups, but also against ethnic groups. Second, your claim that immigrants dominate the statistics is wrong. They are over-represented. But even if we take that as your claim, no, the conclusion in itself is not racist. However, if you read what I wrote more carefully, that conclusion can be used as an excuse for racism. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism
- daveguy 10y ago
  > Why is the conclusion that immigrants dominate the statistics of violence against women racist? Because it appears to be a made up conclusion for the purpose of stoking anti-immigrant sentiment. You have yet to provide a source. OP has sources. GP has sources. You have fear mongering.
  - dep_b 10y ago
    > The 2005 report by the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention studying 4.4 million Swedes between the ages of 15 and 51 during the period 1997-2001 found that 58.9% of crime suspects were born to two Swedish parents (74.5% of total population), 10.4% of those born to one Swedish parent (9.3% of total population), 5.2% of those born to two foreign parents (3.2% of total population), and 25% of foreign-born individuals (13.1% of total population). The report found that male immigrants were four times more likely to be investigated for lethal violence and robbery than ethnic Swedes. In addition, male immigrants were three times more likely to be investigated for violent assault, and five times more likely to be investigated for sex crimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime#Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime#Sweden If you don't think WikiPedia is correct feel free to change the lemma, I bet they can use a certified statistician like you with all kinds of sources to prove them wrong. But until then: Five times as much And now I need to believe that I'm the one that needs to be corrected? And another thing: once you split it up to region there's a bigger difference. East Asian and Western immigrants generally have lower or similar statistics compared to natives, meaning there are also groups that exceed the five times average.
    - beefield 10y ago
      > And now I need to believe that I'm the one that needs to be corrected? Your original claim was: > immigrants dominate the statistics of violence against women Let's see what "dominate" means [1]: to be predominant in And further, predominant [2]: being most frequent or common There is simply nothing to discuss here. Your original claim was wrong, even using your own statistics. (Of course, you may have tried to say or you meant that immigrants are over represented, which would be correct. But you did not say that. Thus you are the one to be corrected.) [1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dominate https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dominate [2] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/predominant https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/predominant
cowl 10y ago
It is irrelevant since they refuse to keep statics based on the Ethnicity. Example (fictitious) if total Crime has decreased by 1% but crime by Swedish citizens has decreased by 5% it would actually show a 4% crime increase in non Swedish population. although this fictitious figure may seems small it would be nonetheless an unwarranted risk increase. Not everything that distinguishes based on ethnicity is racism otherwise the vast majority of Medical research would be racist because they target specific populations for specific drugs.
- beefield 10y ago
  > figure may seems small it would be nonetheless an unwarranted risk increase. That is again another discussion where it may be relevant. I took a quite specific discussion ("Sweden has turned dangerous because of crimes by immigrants") and in that discussion the fact(?) that total crime numbers have not increased is very relevant.
  - concinds 10y ago
    > I took a quite specific discussion ("Sweden has turned dangerous because of crimes by immigrants") and in that discussion the fact(?) that total crime numbers have not increased is very relevant. Not necessarily the case because demographics are never homogeneously distributed across territory. If the rape/crime numbers didn't fall uniformly across the whole population, then you could have scenarios where crime fell by 20% in some regions and increased 25% in others, and overall it would be constant. I'm making up the numbers to illustrate. More data would make your point much more convincing.
    - kaveh_h 10y ago
      Lots of factors contribute to change in criminal activity, urbanization, rise of income inequality but also more people in segregated areas will probably not work out very well either.
      - ptaipale 10y ago
yummyfajitas 10y ago
A more relevant question is whether immigrants are making Sweden more dangerous than it would otherwise be. It's possible that Sweden became safer because Swedes commit fewer crimes, and this decrease outweighed a crime increase caused by immigrants. Crime-by-nationality data would help resolve this question. Why is the Swedish government hiding it?
- estomagordo 10y ago
  Every criminologist, relevant government institution or agency already knows that immigrants are over-represented in crime. I'm not sure what would be learned and what strategies would change if one were to learn exactly how that over-representation looks today.
  - someguydave 10y ago
    So data that discredits an ideology should remain unpublished? That sounds like theocracy.
  - ptaipale 10y ago
    Generally, an analysis for how to solve a problem starts with finding out and admitting the facts. The steadfast refusal in this case is actually worsening the situation because it is creating distrust in government.

dep_b 10y ago

> If you are looking for excuses for racism Why is the conclusion that immigrants dominate the statistics of violence against women racist? I don't think there are many people who believe the cause of this statistic is genetic. I thought women should be safe regardless the perpetrator but there is this weird dual standard where the whole company Uber (correctly!) gets the blame because of it's douchebag culture even when some of it's key executives don't directly partake in denigrating women, yet when migrants dominate negative statistics in far worse crimes against women all of a sudden imagined racism is the worst crime instead of actually abuse of women. I think the problem with that particular violent subset of the Muslim subset of immigrants is exactly what you try to blame other people for: right-wing asshole mysogonist gay jew or "soft men" (i.e. respectful mostly left wing so yes you) hating retards. With absolutely no ground for respect let alone a chance of a better life in a modern society. And you should fight them with the same energy you fight "native" right wing hate groups. People fleeing from that kind of violent and oppressive people should not go to Sweden only to be confronted by exactly the same people they were trying to get away of.

beefield 10y ago
> Why is the conclusion that immigrants dominate the statistics of violence against women racist? I don't think there are many people who believe the cause of this statistic is genetic. First, if the very first sentence of wikipedia article of racism[1] tells that racism can be against a race or ethnic group, it should be accepted that the word "racism" is used not only to genetically different groups, but also against ethnic groups. Second, your claim that immigrants dominate the statistics is wrong. They are over-represented. But even if we take that as your claim, no, the conclusion in itself is not racist. However, if you read what I wrote more carefully, that conclusion can be used as an excuse for racism. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism
daveguy 10y ago
> Why is the conclusion that immigrants dominate the statistics of violence against women racist? Because it appears to be a made up conclusion for the purpose of stoking anti-immigrant sentiment. You have yet to provide a source. OP has sources. GP has sources. You have fear mongering.
- dep_b 10y ago
  > The 2005 report by the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention studying 4.4 million Swedes between the ages of 15 and 51 during the period 1997-2001 found that 58.9% of crime suspects were born to two Swedish parents (74.5% of total population), 10.4% of those born to one Swedish parent (9.3% of total population), 5.2% of those born to two foreign parents (3.2% of total population), and 25% of foreign-born individuals (13.1% of total population). The report found that male immigrants were four times more likely to be investigated for lethal violence and robbery than ethnic Swedes. In addition, male immigrants were three times more likely to be investigated for violent assault, and five times more likely to be investigated for sex crimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime#Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime#Sweden If you don't think WikiPedia is correct feel free to change the lemma, I bet they can use a certified statistician like you with all kinds of sources to prove them wrong. But until then: Five times as much And now I need to believe that I'm the one that needs to be corrected? And another thing: once you split it up to region there's a bigger difference. East Asian and Western immigrants generally have lower or similar statistics compared to natives, meaning there are also groups that exceed the five times average.
  - beefield 10y ago
    > And now I need to believe that I'm the one that needs to be corrected? Your original claim was: > immigrants dominate the statistics of violence against women Let's see what "dominate" means [1]: to be predominant in And further, predominant [2]: being most frequent or common There is simply nothing to discuss here. Your original claim was wrong, even using your own statistics. (Of course, you may have tried to say or you meant that immigrants are over represented, which would be correct. But you did not say that. Thus you are the one to be corrected.) [1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dominate https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dominate [2] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/predominant https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/predominant

cowl 10y ago

It is irrelevant since they refuse to keep statics based on the Ethnicity. Example (fictitious) if total Crime has decreased by 1% but crime by Swedish citizens has decreased by 5% it would actually show a 4% crime increase in non Swedish population. although this fictitious figure may seems small it would be nonetheless an unwarranted risk increase. Not everything that distinguishes based on ethnicity is racism otherwise the vast majority of Medical research would be racist because they target specific populations for specific drugs.

beefield 10y ago
> figure may seems small it would be nonetheless an unwarranted risk increase. That is again another discussion where it may be relevant. I took a quite specific discussion ("Sweden has turned dangerous because of crimes by immigrants") and in that discussion the fact(?) that total crime numbers have not increased is very relevant.
- concinds 10y ago
  > I took a quite specific discussion ("Sweden has turned dangerous because of crimes by immigrants") and in that discussion the fact(?) that total crime numbers have not increased is very relevant. Not necessarily the case because demographics are never homogeneously distributed across territory. If the rape/crime numbers didn't fall uniformly across the whole population, then you could have scenarios where crime fell by 20% in some regions and increased 25% in others, and overall it would be constant. I'm making up the numbers to illustrate. More data would make your point much more convincing.
  - kaveh_h 10y ago
    Lots of factors contribute to change in criminal activity, urbanization, rise of income inequality but also more people in segregated areas will probably not work out very well either.
    - ptaipale 10y ago

yummyfajitas 10y ago

A more relevant question is whether immigrants are making Sweden more dangerous than it would otherwise be. It's possible that Sweden became safer because Swedes commit fewer crimes, and this decrease outweighed a crime increase caused by immigrants. Crime-by-nationality data would help resolve this question. Why is the Swedish government hiding it?

estomagordo 10y ago
Every criminologist, relevant government institution or agency already knows that immigrants are over-represented in crime. I'm not sure what would be learned and what strategies would change if one were to learn exactly how that over-representation looks today.
- someguydave 10y ago
  So data that discredits an ideology should remain unpublished? That sounds like theocracy.
- ptaipale 10y ago
  Generally, an analysis for how to solve a problem starts with finding out and admitting the facts. The steadfast refusal in this case is actually worsening the situation because it is creating distrust in government.