4 ms·

I got into a argument with my German girlfriend last night that involved calling her a racist. We were discussing where to travel for our next holiday -- and i

I got into a argument with my German girlfriend last night that involved calling her a racist. We were discussing where to travel for our next holiday -- and it came to light that she would not go to France because she was afraid and said she would be uncomfortable there. She also told me that she is uncomfortable on the train when there are young muslim males on board. I tried to argue the statistics of risk with her and said that we should've also avoiding traveling to the US based on her risk assessment given the risk of being killed by mentally ill people with guns or white supremacist terrorists. Ultimately, in my opinion, she is just more comfortable with risk if it comes from white people than from brown -- I choose to call her a racist to try and demonstrate just how wrong I perceive her thinking to be. Its very depressing to watch the reasonableness and kindness of Germans that I used to perceive to be common and widespread so in decline... Racists really do seem like they are everywhere these days ...

nsxwolf 10y ago
Sounds like you'll be looking for a new girlfriend soon one way or another.
cableshaft 10y ago
I mean, France is an active target for terrorism due to their politics and has had multiple major incidents in recent memory. I'm a naturally paranoid person and I'll get nervous any time I'm on a train, a plane, or in a big city pretty much anywhere, because my brain starts inventing scenarios where this time, something goes wrong (not even terrorist related, like if I'm in the plane I'll just imagine it as one of the times something malfunctions and it crashes). It's not quite enough to completely deter myself from getting on the plane or going into the city, but I don't truly feel relaxed and comfortable, usually, until I'm no longer in that situation. Hell, thanks to that Aurora, Colorado theater massacre, I even feel that way in movies now (I actually had tickets to see Dark Knight Rises the day after that happened...that was a surreal experience). I should also state that, despite my obvious fear of terrorism, I do think governments have been using it as a bogeyman in order to get all sorts of draconian policies passed and do some horrible things in the guise of protecting their citizens from terrorism. I know you were calling her that to demonstrate a point, but it's not necessarily as deep as that. It can just be a fear that you understand is irrational but feel it anyway. I think as long as you acknowledge it's irrational and don't let it dictate your behavior too much (definitely not channel it towards feeling you have to attack someone), then it's not necessarily a bad thing and just a consequence of being a fragile human with survival instincts. Once we've uploaded our consciousnesses and disposed of our biological containers, maybe then we can stop feeling fear about these things.
- mikeash 10y ago
  Well put. We're all racist to an extent. It's an unavoidable part of how our brains work. We will interpret things differently depending on how a person looks. What matters is whether you understand and acknowledge this fact, and what you do about it. If you resist it and attempt to compensate, you're good. If you give in to it and embrace it, not so much.
- breatheoften 10y ago
  She does not regard her fear as irrational. She is choosing to let her fear limit where she will take her next vacation because she believes the danger is real. She thinks that by choosing to not travel to France she is reducing her exposure to a real danger. Another point she made during our (far ranging) discussion which I didn't mention, was that she regards Islam as part of the cause of terrorism. In my mind, (as a non-religious person who thinks all religions are crazy but not all religious people have to be) -- this is an idea which is pointless. Its an idea which is dangerous if many people believe it or basically harmless if most people don't. I tried to argue that the relationships between muslim communities around the world and Islamic Terrorism were cultural rather than religious but she rejected that, suggesting that something specific about the terms of the religion as dictated in their holy texts/rituals were an important part of the Islamic Terrorism phenomenon. She disagreed with me when I argued that terrorist attacks in the west were primarily the result of people with random assortments of psychotic mental illnesses pattern matching against propaganda on the internet to find 'reasons' for conducting their attacks -- much more so than from some fundamental aspects within one of the largest religions in the world ... My preferred hobby is rock climbing which involves a fairly direct dialogue with the fear response. Accurate risk assessment is a visceral part of the process of maintaining safety in rock climbing. I tend to be sensitive to scenarios where over-estimating risk actually has counterproductive effects on safety. Not only do I disagree with her because of my perceived errors in her personal decision making -- but its also my opinion that this error is too common and should be called out for what it is, because mis-allocation of fear becomes increasingly dangerous as it becomes more common. I think the capacity for the fear of terrorism to justify horrible decisions is clear and supported by historical evidence (second Iraq war). Playing to fear of terrorism -- by condemning the party in power for failing to be hard enough, by things like muslim bans, and by attempts to kill them over their so we don't have to kill them here are real phenomenon whose real world cost far exceeds the actual damage from terrorism. Us not going to France for holiday because of fear of terrorism ultimately supports other much worse irrational actions ... I think the way she justifies her fear of muslims and the way that she prioritizes that over other forms of fear is racist ... I think I'm reading in the responses to my comment that maybe the takeaway sentiment is that -- (a) she isn't alone in feeling an irrational fear as she does, (b) she should strive to acknowledge that her fear is irrational and (c) she should try to work to not let it govern her actions. So ... does that mean that we should travel to France or not?
Mithaldu 10y ago
Did you ask her if she's aware that her fears are real, but not entirely rational? It's possible to feel fear due to prejudices against certain people, be aware that is irrational, but still be powerless against the fear. I personally harbor a certain dislike against the french due to past work relationships. I however always aim to be aware that it is an irrational prejudice and actively keep myself from having it influence my interactions with french negatively, while still trying to avoid such interactions just for the sake of my own mental health.
- breatheoften 10y ago
  I attempted to challenge the rationality of her fear, but she both disagreed with my assessment of the irrationality as well as suggesting that even if her assessment was irrational, it represented how she felt and that she was most comfortable to act on how she felt. At this point we both felt quite boxed into our disagreement.

nsxwolf 10y ago

Sounds like you'll be looking for a new girlfriend soon one way or another.

cableshaft 10y ago

I mean, France is an active target for terrorism due to their politics and has had multiple major incidents in recent memory. I'm a naturally paranoid person and I'll get nervous any time I'm on a train, a plane, or in a big city pretty much anywhere, because my brain starts inventing scenarios where this time, something goes wrong (not even terrorist related, like if I'm in the plane I'll just imagine it as one of the times something malfunctions and it crashes). It's not quite enough to completely deter myself from getting on the plane or going into the city, but I don't truly feel relaxed and comfortable, usually, until I'm no longer in that situation. Hell, thanks to that Aurora, Colorado theater massacre, I even feel that way in movies now (I actually had tickets to see Dark Knight Rises the day after that happened...that was a surreal experience). I should also state that, despite my obvious fear of terrorism, I do think governments have been using it as a bogeyman in order to get all sorts of draconian policies passed and do some horrible things in the guise of protecting their citizens from terrorism. I know you were calling her that to demonstrate a point, but it's not necessarily as deep as that. It can just be a fear that you understand is irrational but feel it anyway. I think as long as you acknowledge it's irrational and don't let it dictate your behavior too much (definitely not channel it towards feeling you have to attack someone), then it's not necessarily a bad thing and just a consequence of being a fragile human with survival instincts. Once we've uploaded our consciousnesses and disposed of our biological containers, maybe then we can stop feeling fear about these things.

mikeash 10y ago
Well put. We're all racist to an extent. It's an unavoidable part of how our brains work. We will interpret things differently depending on how a person looks. What matters is whether you understand and acknowledge this fact, and what you do about it. If you resist it and attempt to compensate, you're good. If you give in to it and embrace it, not so much.
breatheoften 10y ago
She does not regard her fear as irrational. She is choosing to let her fear limit where she will take her next vacation because she believes the danger is real. She thinks that by choosing to not travel to France she is reducing her exposure to a real danger. Another point she made during our (far ranging) discussion which I didn't mention, was that she regards Islam as part of the cause of terrorism. In my mind, (as a non-religious person who thinks all religions are crazy but not all religious people have to be) -- this is an idea which is pointless. Its an idea which is dangerous if many people believe it or basically harmless if most people don't. I tried to argue that the relationships between muslim communities around the world and Islamic Terrorism were cultural rather than religious but she rejected that, suggesting that something specific about the terms of the religion as dictated in their holy texts/rituals were an important part of the Islamic Terrorism phenomenon. She disagreed with me when I argued that terrorist attacks in the west were primarily the result of people with random assortments of psychotic mental illnesses pattern matching against propaganda on the internet to find 'reasons' for conducting their attacks -- much more so than from some fundamental aspects within one of the largest religions in the world ... My preferred hobby is rock climbing which involves a fairly direct dialogue with the fear response. Accurate risk assessment is a visceral part of the process of maintaining safety in rock climbing. I tend to be sensitive to scenarios where over-estimating risk actually has counterproductive effects on safety. Not only do I disagree with her because of my perceived errors in her personal decision making -- but its also my opinion that this error is too common and should be called out for what it is, because mis-allocation of fear becomes increasingly dangerous as it becomes more common. I think the capacity for the fear of terrorism to justify horrible decisions is clear and supported by historical evidence (second Iraq war). Playing to fear of terrorism -- by condemning the party in power for failing to be hard enough, by things like muslim bans, and by attempts to kill them over their so we don't have to kill them here are real phenomenon whose real world cost far exceeds the actual damage from terrorism. Us not going to France for holiday because of fear of terrorism ultimately supports other much worse irrational actions ... I think the way she justifies her fear of muslims and the way that she prioritizes that over other forms of fear is racist ... I think I'm reading in the responses to my comment that maybe the takeaway sentiment is that -- (a) she isn't alone in feeling an irrational fear as she does, (b) she should strive to acknowledge that her fear is irrational and (c) she should try to work to not let it govern her actions. So ... does that mean that we should travel to France or not?

Mithaldu 10y ago

Did you ask her if she's aware that her fears are real, but not entirely rational? It's possible to feel fear due to prejudices against certain people, be aware that is irrational, but still be powerless against the fear. I personally harbor a certain dislike against the french due to past work relationships. I however always aim to be aware that it is an irrational prejudice and actively keep myself from having it influence my interactions with french negatively, while still trying to avoid such interactions just for the sake of my own mental health.

breatheoften 10y ago
I attempted to challenge the rationality of her fear, but she both disagreed with my assessment of the irrationality as well as suggesting that even if her assessment was irrational, it represented how she felt and that she was most comfortable to act on how she felt. At this point we both felt quite boxed into our disagreement.