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It's totally irrelevant that the crimes has decreased. The point is that a majority of all violence and sexual crimes is performed by immigrants (as confirmed b

by polack 10y ago

It's totally irrelevant that the crimes has decreased. The point is that a majority of all violence and sexual crimes is performed by immigrants (as confirmed by Sweden's most famous crime professor GW a couple of days ago). Why are you so afraid to see that immigrants are over represented in this category of crimes?

laxentasken 10y ago
Because politics, really.
Svenskunganka 10y ago
Leif GW Persson, who the above commenter is talking about clarified this on TV just a couple of days ago. The segment starts 18 minutes in and is in Swedish: http://www.svtplay.se/video/12505960/veckans-brott/veckans-brott-sasong-14-avsnitt-7?start=auto http://www.svtplay.se/video/12505960/veckans-brott/veckans-b... (hoping there is no region blocking...)
- mercer 10y ago
  Would you mind giving a quick summary of the video? I'm somewhat challenged in the 'understanding Swedish' department.
Shalle135 10y ago
Good to know though is what GW is famous for. Being an infamous alcoholic.
- ra1n85 10y ago
  How is this relevant to the discussion? It's almost as if you seek to undermine his argument by pointing out that he has an addiction. Why would you do that? Are you scared of what he thinks and says?
- cancancan 10y ago
  That's just an ad hominem. Try addressing his arguments instead of his lifestyle.
gaff33 10y ago
They talk about it in the article > People from foreign backgrounds are suspected of crimes more often than people from a Swedish background [...] In a later study, researchers at Stockholm University showed that the main difference in terms of criminal activity between immigrants and others in the population was due to differences in the socioeconomic conditions in which they grew up in Sweden. So it seems that whilst immigrants are suspected of more crimes than average, they commit the same amount of crime as poor deprived members of indigenous populations.
- facepalm 10y ago
  I'd say THAT is irrelevant. If I become victim of a crime, it doesn't console me if the perpetrator is poor. I just don't want to become a victim of a crime.
  - croon 10y ago
    The point isn't to console you. The point is to explain why crime happens, so it can be mitigated. Ie: * Stop immigration. OR * Integrate poor people into society, the workforce, etc.
    - leereeves 10y ago
      Those aren't in conflict. Immigration of more poor people from a different culture makes the already difficult task of integrating poor people even more difficult.
    - facepalm 10y ago
      The question was "is there a problem with immigration". How to mitigate crime is only the second step. And it will be difficult to mitigate it if you don't accept the causes. Of course leftists believe that rich countries like Sweden are to be blamed for the poverty of people from other countries. I am also not saying poor people shouldn't be helped. But there doesn't seem to be a universally working formula available. Just as there doesn't seem a formula for making strict Muslims tolerant of homosexuality and freedom of women. If you are hanged by a radical Muslim because you are gay, it doesn't help you that he wouldn't have hanged you if only he had received the right educational interventions beforehand. ----- Edit: sure, Christians can be dangerous radicals, too. If they were a significant part of refugees, that would be topical, too. The problem seems, rather, that many refugees come from countries that skipped the enlightenment and are stuck in the middle ages in some things. I don't have statistics on radical muslims, but there are whole countries where gays are being hanged. You can google the pictures yourself. Here is a list of "Ehrenmorde" in Germany: http://www.ehrenmord.de/doku/2016/doku_2016.php http://www.ehrenmord.de/doku/2016/doku_2016.php Ehrenmorde are cases were people are being murdered by family members (usually brothers murdering their sisters, but sometimes also men are the victims) for bringing "shame" to the family - like having extramarital sex, leaving the religion, stuff like that. Some of the freedoms we take for granted are simply not taken for granted in other cultures. And I don't think there exists a formula for convincing people from such cultures of our values.
id122015 10y ago
And regional stats should not be diluted by national stats. I want to know if crime increased in Stockholm?
beefield 10y ago
> It's totally irrelevant that the crimes has decreased. That depends. If you are looking for excuses for racism, it obviously is not relevant. But if you claim that the Swedish society has turned dangerous because of the immigrant crimes, it should be highly relevant for the discussion.
- dep_b 10y ago
  > If you are looking for excuses for racism Why is the conclusion that immigrants dominate the statistics of violence against women racist? I don't think there are many people who believe the cause of this statistic is genetic. I thought women should be safe regardless the perpetrator but there is this weird dual standard where the whole company Uber (correctly!) gets the blame because of it's douchebag culture even when some of it's key executives don't directly partake in denigrating women, yet when migrants dominate negative statistics in far worse crimes against women all of a sudden imagined racism is the worst crime instead of actually abuse of women. I think the problem with that particular violent subset of the Muslim subset of immigrants is exactly what you try to blame other people for: right-wing asshole mysogonist gay jew or "soft men" (i.e. respectful mostly left wing so yes you) hating retards. With absolutely no ground for respect let alone a chance of a better life in a modern society. And you should fight them with the same energy you fight "native" right wing hate groups. People fleeing from that kind of violent and oppressive people should not go to Sweden only to be confronted by exactly the same people they were trying to get away of.
  - beefield 10y ago
    > Why is the conclusion that immigrants dominate the statistics of violence against women racist? I don't think there are many people who believe the cause of this statistic is genetic. First, if the very first sentence of wikipedia article of racism[1] tells that racism can be against a race or ethnic group, it should be accepted that the word "racism" is used not only to genetically different groups, but also against ethnic groups. Second, your claim that immigrants dominate the statistics is wrong. They are over-represented. But even if we take that as your claim, no, the conclusion in itself is not racist. However, if you read what I wrote more carefully, that conclusion can be used as an excuse for racism. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism
freeflight 10y ago
>The point is that a majority of all violence and sexual crimes is performed by immigrants Source please? Because the available data, at least for Germany, does not support this claim at all. Latest BKA report from first quarter of 2016 puts the amount of "offenses against sexual self-determination" for migrants at 1.10%. [1] As somebody who's lived over 10 years right next to Bavaria's biggest initial reception center, in Zirndorf, I'm always amazed by all those claims as to how insanely criminal these people supposedly are. I've never witnessed anything like that, Zirndorf is actually quite peaceful town with barely anything ever happening. [1]- https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/EN/Themen/Sicherheit/crime-in-the-context-of-migrant-influx.pdf;jsessionid=59D6AE204E11E0481D1DA8B459CFB271.2_cid364?__blob=publicationFile https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/EN/Themen/Siche...
- rndgermandude 10y ago
  Not attempting to prove the grandparent right (because they are not), but the 1.1% figure is misleading. It's the portion of migrant crimes that are sex crimes, not the portion of sex crimes committed by migrants of the all sex crimes.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - Paradigma11 10y ago
    "The point is that a majority of all violence and sexual crimes is performed by immigrants" I definitely read that as "the portion of sex crimes committed by migrants of the all sex crimes".
    - rndgermandude 10y ago
      I was referring to the BND report taking about "1.1%", not that...
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
rbehrends 10y ago
The problem is that "immigrants" is an extremely imprecise category. I don't know enough about Sweden, but I know that in Germany, foreign crime is primarily dominated by organized crime from abroad: pickpocket gangs from North Africa, burglary gangs from Serbia and Georgia, the Russian Mafia, Lebanese crime clans, etc. In contrast, Syrian refugees seem to be among the most law-abiding foreigners you can find (followed by Iraqi refugees, as I recall). "Immigrants" is a fairly useless category for criminological purposes, as it combines several other categories with vastly different profiles, some with outsized crime rates, some below that of natives.
orcdork 10y ago
Hah, what a joke. Leif GW Persson is famous for writing books and being on tv shows - not for being a crime professor (and he is no longer a professor of criminology). There's a reason googling his name comes up with breitbart first, and goodreads second.
- tobylane 10y ago
  What difference does that make? As we've seen in USA, a job that has always been filled by career politicians or soldiers has been filled by a man famous for being on tv. On the other hand this guy was in a relevant position. Is being a former professor of criminology different to currently being a professor?
zurn 10y ago
> The point is that a majority of all violence and sexual crimes is performed by immigrants This claim is false, > (as confirmed by Sweden's most famous crime professor GW a couple of days ago) and this attribution is also false.
- polack 10y ago
  Source video: http://www.svtplay.se/video/12505960/veckans-brott/veckans-brott-sasong-14-avsnitt-7?start=auto http://www.svtplay.se/video/12505960/veckans-brott/veckans-b... He says that "if you look across the board on all convicted crimes it's half-half between natives and immigrants. But if you look at the more 'sensitive' crimes there is a significant over representation of immigrants"
  - fulafel 10y ago
    That's different, overrepresentation vs majority of crimes.
mikeash 10y ago
If the total number has remained steady, but the majority of perpetrators are now immigrants, then that implies the total number committed by native Swedes has dropped by roughly half in just a few years. This is highly implausible, so somebody's claims here are wrong.
alkonaut 10y ago
Remarks like this is exactly why this whole debate has derailed. No one is even contesting that immigrants commit more crimes IT'S EVEN IN THIS ARTICLE WHICH IS AN ARTICLE FROM THE GOVERNMENT. Yet yeah it's covered up. Sure.
- turc1656 10y ago
  "No one is even contesting that immigrants commit more crimes" You must be joking. There is a huge amount of people who claim they don't. For example, these media outlets which many people find to be reputable: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/immigrants-commit-crimes-us-united-states-born-america-donald-trump-alien-weekly-list-a7548956.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/immigrants-... https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/26/us/trump-illegal-immigrants-crime.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/26/us/trump-illegal-immigran... http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-bersani-piquero-immigrant-crime-20160906-snap-story.html http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-bersani-piquero-i... Or you could hear the (former) US ambassador to Sweden claim the increase of 1.5 million violent crimes in Sweden is not attributable to refugees (around 3:58) - "...does not mean that is somehow related to migrants." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFPjEM0Izpc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFPjEM0Izpc
  - alkonaut 10y ago
    It's all semantics. Immigrants commit more crimes. Adjust for economic/social factors and most of that disappears. So in one war they do and in others they don't. Statistics is hard and both sides use it to prove their point.
    - turc1656 10y ago
      My point was simply that there is not agreement across the board that they commit more crimes. Yes, people are unscrupulous when it comes to statistics, that's definitely true. But "adjusting" for things is usually a way for people to get the result they want with the numbers. The government does this all the time with "seasonal adjustments" to housing and employment data. There never appears to be any rhyme or reason to the adjustments other than getting a better/desired number. Also, when people argue that it's because of socioeconomic factors or whatever else they may claim, that doesn't change the fact that they either do or do not commit more crimes. The reason for it can be discussed and addressed but many people try to use such an explanation as a way to weaken the fact that is presented. I think the general citizen needs to become far more knowledgeable about math and statistics since they are always used to justify public policy nowadays. The common person is terrible at being able to weed out the bullshit that is presented by sources which all have agendas.
tiatia 10y ago
"The point is that a majority of all violence and sexual crimes is performed by immigrants " This makes you a "right wing thug" for many people in Europe. Europe is lost. They lost their immunity for enemies of their open society. Uneducated immigrants from violent tribal societies will first make the social system implode, then the society.

by polack 10y ago

laxentasken 10y ago

Because politics, really.

Svenskunganka 10y ago

Leif GW Persson, who the above commenter is talking about clarified this on TV just a couple of days ago. The segment starts 18 minutes in and is in Swedish: http://www.svtplay.se/video/12505960/veckans-brott/veckans-brott-sasong-14-avsnitt-7?start=auto http://www.svtplay.se/video/12505960/veckans-brott/veckans-b... (hoping there is no region blocking...)

mercer 10y ago
Would you mind giving a quick summary of the video? I'm somewhat challenged in the 'understanding Swedish' department.

Shalle135 10y ago

Good to know though is what GW is famous for. Being an infamous alcoholic.

ra1n85 10y ago
How is this relevant to the discussion? It's almost as if you seek to undermine his argument by pointing out that he has an addiction. Why would you do that? Are you scared of what he thinks and says?
cancancan 10y ago
That's just an ad hominem. Try addressing his arguments instead of his lifestyle.

gaff33 10y ago

They talk about it in the article > People from foreign backgrounds are suspected of crimes more often than people from a Swedish background [...] In a later study, researchers at Stockholm University showed that the main difference in terms of criminal activity between immigrants and others in the population was due to differences in the socioeconomic conditions in which they grew up in Sweden. So it seems that whilst immigrants are suspected of more crimes than average, they commit the same amount of crime as poor deprived members of indigenous populations.

facepalm 10y ago
I'd say THAT is irrelevant. If I become victim of a crime, it doesn't console me if the perpetrator is poor. I just don't want to become a victim of a crime.
- croon 10y ago
  The point isn't to console you. The point is to explain why crime happens, so it can be mitigated. Ie: * Stop immigration. OR * Integrate poor people into society, the workforce, etc.
  - leereeves 10y ago
    Those aren't in conflict. Immigration of more poor people from a different culture makes the already difficult task of integrating poor people even more difficult.
  - facepalm 10y ago
    The question was "is there a problem with immigration". How to mitigate crime is only the second step. And it will be difficult to mitigate it if you don't accept the causes. Of course leftists believe that rich countries like Sweden are to be blamed for the poverty of people from other countries. I am also not saying poor people shouldn't be helped. But there doesn't seem to be a universally working formula available. Just as there doesn't seem a formula for making strict Muslims tolerant of homosexuality and freedom of women. If you are hanged by a radical Muslim because you are gay, it doesn't help you that he wouldn't have hanged you if only he had received the right educational interventions beforehand. ----- Edit: sure, Christians can be dangerous radicals, too. If they were a significant part of refugees, that would be topical, too. The problem seems, rather, that many refugees come from countries that skipped the enlightenment and are stuck in the middle ages in some things. I don't have statistics on radical muslims, but there are whole countries where gays are being hanged. You can google the pictures yourself. Here is a list of "Ehrenmorde" in Germany: http://www.ehrenmord.de/doku/2016/doku_2016.php http://www.ehrenmord.de/doku/2016/doku_2016.php Ehrenmorde are cases were people are being murdered by family members (usually brothers murdering their sisters, but sometimes also men are the victims) for bringing "shame" to the family - like having extramarital sex, leaving the religion, stuff like that. Some of the freedoms we take for granted are simply not taken for granted in other cultures. And I don't think there exists a formula for convincing people from such cultures of our values.

id122015 10y ago

And regional stats should not be diluted by national stats. I want to know if crime increased in Stockholm?

beefield 10y ago

> It's totally irrelevant that the crimes has decreased. That depends. If you are looking for excuses for racism, it obviously is not relevant. But if you claim that the Swedish society has turned dangerous because of the immigrant crimes, it should be highly relevant for the discussion.

dep_b 10y ago
> If you are looking for excuses for racism Why is the conclusion that immigrants dominate the statistics of violence against women racist? I don't think there are many people who believe the cause of this statistic is genetic. I thought women should be safe regardless the perpetrator but there is this weird dual standard where the whole company Uber (correctly!) gets the blame because of it's douchebag culture even when some of it's key executives don't directly partake in denigrating women, yet when migrants dominate negative statistics in far worse crimes against women all of a sudden imagined racism is the worst crime instead of actually abuse of women. I think the problem with that particular violent subset of the Muslim subset of immigrants is exactly what you try to blame other people for: right-wing asshole mysogonist gay jew or "soft men" (i.e. respectful mostly left wing so yes you) hating retards. With absolutely no ground for respect let alone a chance of a better life in a modern society. And you should fight them with the same energy you fight "native" right wing hate groups. People fleeing from that kind of violent and oppressive people should not go to Sweden only to be confronted by exactly the same people they were trying to get away of.
- beefield 10y ago
  > Why is the conclusion that immigrants dominate the statistics of violence against women racist? I don't think there are many people who believe the cause of this statistic is genetic. First, if the very first sentence of wikipedia article of racism[1] tells that racism can be against a race or ethnic group, it should be accepted that the word "racism" is used not only to genetically different groups, but also against ethnic groups. Second, your claim that immigrants dominate the statistics is wrong. They are over-represented. But even if we take that as your claim, no, the conclusion in itself is not racist. However, if you read what I wrote more carefully, that conclusion can be used as an excuse for racism. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

freeflight 10y ago

>The point is that a majority of all violence and sexual crimes is performed by immigrants Source please? Because the available data, at least for Germany, does not support this claim at all. Latest BKA report from first quarter of 2016 puts the amount of "offenses against sexual self-determination" for migrants at 1.10%. [1] As somebody who's lived over 10 years right next to Bavaria's biggest initial reception center, in Zirndorf, I'm always amazed by all those claims as to how insanely criminal these people supposedly are. I've never witnessed anything like that, Zirndorf is actually quite peaceful town with barely anything ever happening. [1]- https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/EN/Themen/Sicherheit/crime-in-the-context-of-migrant-influx.pdf;jsessionid=59D6AE204E11E0481D1DA8B459CFB271.2_cid364?__blob=publicationFile https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/EN/Themen/Siche...

rndgermandude 10y ago
Not attempting to prove the grandparent right (because they are not), but the 1.1% figure is misleading. It's the portion of migrant crimes that are sex crimes, not the portion of sex crimes committed by migrants of the all sex crimes.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- Paradigma11 10y ago
  "The point is that a majority of all violence and sexual crimes is performed by immigrants" I definitely read that as "the portion of sex crimes committed by migrants of the all sex crimes".
  - rndgermandude 10y ago
    I was referring to the BND report taking about "1.1%", not that...

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

rbehrends 10y ago

The problem is that "immigrants" is an extremely imprecise category. I don't know enough about Sweden, but I know that in Germany, foreign crime is primarily dominated by organized crime from abroad: pickpocket gangs from North Africa, burglary gangs from Serbia and Georgia, the Russian Mafia, Lebanese crime clans, etc. In contrast, Syrian refugees seem to be among the most law-abiding foreigners you can find (followed by Iraqi refugees, as I recall). "Immigrants" is a fairly useless category for criminological purposes, as it combines several other categories with vastly different profiles, some with outsized crime rates, some below that of natives.

orcdork 10y ago

Hah, what a joke. Leif GW Persson is famous for writing books and being on tv shows - not for being a crime professor (and he is no longer a professor of criminology). There's a reason googling his name comes up with breitbart first, and goodreads second.

tobylane 10y ago
What difference does that make? As we've seen in USA, a job that has always been filled by career politicians or soldiers has been filled by a man famous for being on tv. On the other hand this guy was in a relevant position. Is being a former professor of criminology different to currently being a professor?

zurn 10y ago

> The point is that a majority of all violence and sexual crimes is performed by immigrants This claim is false, > (as confirmed by Sweden's most famous crime professor GW a couple of days ago) and this attribution is also false.

polack 10y ago
Source video: http://www.svtplay.se/video/12505960/veckans-brott/veckans-brott-sasong-14-avsnitt-7?start=auto http://www.svtplay.se/video/12505960/veckans-brott/veckans-b... He says that "if you look across the board on all convicted crimes it's half-half between natives and immigrants. But if you look at the more 'sensitive' crimes there is a significant over representation of immigrants"
- fulafel 10y ago
  That's different, overrepresentation vs majority of crimes.

mikeash 10y ago

If the total number has remained steady, but the majority of perpetrators are now immigrants, then that implies the total number committed by native Swedes has dropped by roughly half in just a few years. This is highly implausible, so somebody's claims here are wrong.

alkonaut 10y ago

Remarks like this is exactly why this whole debate has derailed. No one is even contesting that immigrants commit more crimes IT'S EVEN IN THIS ARTICLE WHICH IS AN ARTICLE FROM THE GOVERNMENT. Yet yeah it's covered up. Sure.

turc1656 10y ago
"No one is even contesting that immigrants commit more crimes" You must be joking. There is a huge amount of people who claim they don't. For example, these media outlets which many people find to be reputable: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/immigrants-commit-crimes-us-united-states-born-america-donald-trump-alien-weekly-list-a7548956.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/immigrants-... https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/26/us/trump-illegal-immigrants-crime.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/26/us/trump-illegal-immigran... http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-bersani-piquero-immigrant-crime-20160906-snap-story.html http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-bersani-piquero-i... Or you could hear the (former) US ambassador to Sweden claim the increase of 1.5 million violent crimes in Sweden is not attributable to refugees (around 3:58) - "...does not mean that is somehow related to migrants." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFPjEM0Izpc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFPjEM0Izpc
- alkonaut 10y ago
  It's all semantics. Immigrants commit more crimes. Adjust for economic/social factors and most of that disappears. So in one war they do and in others they don't. Statistics is hard and both sides use it to prove their point.
  - turc1656 10y ago
    My point was simply that there is not agreement across the board that they commit more crimes. Yes, people are unscrupulous when it comes to statistics, that's definitely true. But "adjusting" for things is usually a way for people to get the result they want with the numbers. The government does this all the time with "seasonal adjustments" to housing and employment data. There never appears to be any rhyme or reason to the adjustments other than getting a better/desired number. Also, when people argue that it's because of socioeconomic factors or whatever else they may claim, that doesn't change the fact that they either do or do not commit more crimes. The reason for it can be discussed and addressed but many people try to use such an explanation as a way to weaken the fact that is presented. I think the general citizen needs to become far more knowledgeable about math and statistics since they are always used to justify public policy nowadays. The common person is terrible at being able to weed out the bullshit that is presented by sources which all have agendas.

tiatia 10y ago

"The point is that a majority of all violence and sexual crimes is performed by immigrants " This makes you a "right wing thug" for many people in Europe. Europe is lost. They lost their immunity for enemies of their open society. Uneducated immigrants from violent tribal societies will first make the social system implode, then the society.