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And yet you're arguing for this by replying to the top comment. You have a point but I think it's undeniable that a significant share of developers wants a UNI

And yet you're arguing for this by replying to the top comment. You have a point but I think it's undeniable that a significant share of developers wants a UNIX environment. Me included.

pjmlp 10y ago
It is called visibility. I don't deny there are developers that care about UNIX, and even I do care, occasionally. What I don't accept is that for whatever reason now to be a developer one has to breathe UNIX, as if there wasn't anything else a developer might be. This is yet another reason why sometimes I wish Apple had bought Be instead.
- rubber_duck 10y ago
  I kind of agree with you but at the same time I've yet to see a system that sucks less than UNIX style systems. Unless we're talking game dev, real-time 3D graphics and such - then Windows is IMO unparalleled - I have not seen comparable tooling/driver support on other platforms - although I have not tried using Metal.
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    Thing is, a CLI is nice, but nothing that cannot be done better in language repls. UNIX architecture is the "Worse is better" from OS architectures and POSIX is irrelevant when one uses programming languages with rich runtimes.
    - rubber_duck 10y ago
      >but nothing that cannot be done better in language repls. You're thinking on different abstraction layers - sure given a library for runtime X a REPL will be better than CLI, but when you're talking about processes then having functionality exposed via CLI vs Windows way of monolithic apps with GUI only - it's a huge difference for automation/testing/workarounds/re-usability/etc. - and you don't really care what the underlying platform/runtime is.
      - nightski 10y ago
        Uh most of windows is exposed via powershell and can be rn completely from the CLI. .NET, the primary development stack is completely scriptable from the CLI. It's quite powerful. I'm not saying I love the powershell language, I don't. But I don't love Bash either.
      - pjmlp 10y ago
        I can do all of that with Python, Ruby, Powershell, AppleScript,..... No need for UNIX CLI for it.
        rubber_duck 10y ago
        Again you're talking completely different abstraction layers - unless you're saying that you can use a scripting language to use something like windows automation API to click GUI and stuff. My point is that Windows has a culture of black box monolithic apps with GUI focused (if not GUI exclusive) functionality exposing. Nothing stopping you from exposing stuff like commandlets for PS and composing them to build higher level systems - but people don't really do this - and they do in UNIX systems - things end up being more transparent. Nothing to do with any shell or anything really - more about UNIX philosophy of small focused apps composed together vs monolithic apps. When you're developing stuff UNIX approach is IMO way preferable.
        pjmlp 10y ago
        Windows is not the only alternative to UNIX, there are plenty of OS out there full of developers. UNIX, is also full black box monolithic apps with GUI, there is a UNIX world out there beyond GNU/Linux and *BSD FOSS culture.

And yet you're arguing for this by replying to the top comment. You have a point but I think it's undeniable that a significant share of developers wants a UNIX environment. Me included.

pjmlp 10y ago

It is called visibility. I don't deny there are developers that care about UNIX, and even I do care, occasionally. What I don't accept is that for whatever reason now to be a developer one has to breathe UNIX, as if there wasn't anything else a developer might be. This is yet another reason why sometimes I wish Apple had bought Be instead.

rubber_duck 10y ago
I kind of agree with you but at the same time I've yet to see a system that sucks less than UNIX style systems. Unless we're talking game dev, real-time 3D graphics and such - then Windows is IMO unparalleled - I have not seen comparable tooling/driver support on other platforms - although I have not tried using Metal.
- pjmlp 10y ago
  Thing is, a CLI is nice, but nothing that cannot be done better in language repls. UNIX architecture is the "Worse is better" from OS architectures and POSIX is irrelevant when one uses programming languages with rich runtimes.
  - rubber_duck 10y ago
    >but nothing that cannot be done better in language repls. You're thinking on different abstraction layers - sure given a library for runtime X a REPL will be better than CLI, but when you're talking about processes then having functionality exposed via CLI vs Windows way of monolithic apps with GUI only - it's a huge difference for automation/testing/workarounds/re-usability/etc. - and you don't really care what the underlying platform/runtime is.
    - nightski 10y ago
      Uh most of windows is exposed via powershell and can be rn completely from the CLI. .NET, the primary development stack is completely scriptable from the CLI. It's quite powerful. I'm not saying I love the powershell language, I don't. But I don't love Bash either.
    - pjmlp 10y ago
      I can do all of that with Python, Ruby, Powershell, AppleScript,..... No need for UNIX CLI for it.
      - rubber_duck 10y ago
        Again you're talking completely different abstraction layers - unless you're saying that you can use a scripting language to use something like windows automation API to click GUI and stuff. My point is that Windows has a culture of black box monolithic apps with GUI focused (if not GUI exclusive) functionality exposing. Nothing stopping you from exposing stuff like commandlets for PS and composing them to build higher level systems - but people don't really do this - and they do in UNIX systems - things end up being more transparent. Nothing to do with any shell or anything really - more about UNIX philosophy of small focused apps composed together vs monolithic apps. When you're developing stuff UNIX approach is IMO way preferable.
        pjmlp 10y ago
        Windows is not the only alternative to UNIX, there are plenty of OS out there full of developers. UNIX, is also full black box monolithic apps with GUI, there is a UNIX world out there beyond GNU/Linux and *BSD FOSS culture.