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Big surprise. Video Pros now, developers next, common users last. While Apple is focusing on trying to create the thinnest notebook on every generation, other

Big surprise. Video Pros now, developers next, common users last. While Apple is focusing on trying to create the thinnest notebook on every generation, other companies are actually making useful computers, laptops or otherwise. Right now, I've decided to take the money I'd spend on the cheapest Macbook to buy a desktop system, plus a chromebook. I can have mobility and a lot of performance, for a fraction of the price. Even Windows is becoming more viable again, ubuntu core and all.

wyager 10y ago
> developers next, Why would developers switch from mac to windows? If they're alienated by what Apple is doing, they're unlikely to be happy with Microsoft. Linux, sure. Of course, I think this is exactly the sort of misprediction people on HN tend to make, where it turns out that (surprise) Apple actually knows more about market demands than random internet commentators. Remember how we were predicting that the new Touch Bar MacBook Pro would fail hard, but it ended up being the best selling MBP ever?
- rodgerd 10y ago
  > Of course, I think this is exactly the sort of misprediction people on HN tend to make, Says the guy who suggests Linux as a desktop.
  - grive 10y ago
    Suggesting linux as a viable desktop is not equivalent to predicting that $CURRENT_YEAR is the year of the linux desktop. You being dismissive of the idea on this ground is illogical.
- Baeocystin 10y ago
  Best-selling? Sure, I can believe that. Pent-up demand alone likely accounts for much of it. Best-selling to developers? Not a chance.
  - illuminati1911 10y ago
    Any statistics to back that up? Because some random hacker news comments dislike new MacBooks it doesn't mean other developers would. I find it hard to see any realistic alternatives for MacBooks in software development. They give you all the tools you need from the Windows world that are not available on linux like Office, Photoshop etc. and it is still a UNIX system which can do all the stuff that linux can without kernel panics, crashes, bugs and other crap. Also unlike Windows or Linux, a single macOS installation can last pretty much forever and doesn't need to reinstalled every year because of the lost performance like Windows. And last but not least MacBooks are well optimised for the hardware they run on which gives them 1.5-2.5 times the performance with the same hardware as on Windows or Linux. The whole thing about complaining about new MacBooks is same thing as with iPhones. People complain because it's trendy to whine about anything Apple does even if they would create eternal world peace and still everybody will buy them because there is nothing better or even similar on the market.
    - Baeocystin 10y ago
      You mean direct, market-research-supplied numbers? No. I am just one of thousands of people who makes a living in the tech world. What I can say is that 1) A very large portion of other devs I know use(d) MacBooks, and 2) A very large portion of them said "F this, I'm out" when Apple released their most recent machine. Many switched to Surfaces. Your hyperbole against Linux and Windows does your point no credit. Linux has been rock-stable for a very, very long time, and Windows 10 is a pleasure to use, particularly on touch-enabled devices. MS went through severe growing pains with Win8, but those days are past. And the OS/hardware combinations that have emerged since make Apple's offerings feel old and out of touch.
      - paulddraper 10y ago
        > Many switched to Surfaces They switched to Surfaces because they wanted power-user hardware?
        10y ago
- weq 10y ago
  Why would a developer be on a mac in the first place? Cause ur a fanboy? Cause ur against monopolys? If i need to build code that apple says can only be built on a mac, i simply spin up my mac VM and point some tools dont need to drink any koolaid to get the job done. MDI + keyboard skills beats vim ninjas any day of the week.
  - adrianN 10y ago
    Back when the first intel macs came out, they actually were made for developers and were great machines.
    - ubernostrum 10y ago
      they actually were made for developers Apple has never, so far as I am aware, deliberately targeted developers as a primary audience of a laptop computer. Apple's laptops became popular because they ran an operating system that was Unix under the hood, with a nice UI and good set of non-developer applications, which made them good as machines a developer could use for work and for non-work (Linux on the desktop being not so great at the second part of that). Apple has certainly been happy to make money from developers buying laptops as a result of this, but has consistently ignored the expressed wishes and desires of developers when updating its laptop lines, meaning Apple was popular in spite of Apple's indifference, rather than because Apple lovingly catered to this audience. In other words: if you were looking for an executive to run around the stage screaming "DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS!", I think that was probably some other company, and they got ridiculed for it...
      - Lio 10y ago
        I believe you are mistaken. Apple has certainly courted scientific and other developers before. Here's an article about when they stopped targeting science. https://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/apple-drops-science-as-core-market-web-page-deleted https://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/apple-drops-science-...
        10y ago
- romanovcode 10y ago
  When Linux Subsystem will be finally finished I personally don't see any reason to use Linux as desktop environment. As for MacOS looks - Windows also are releasing update to their visuals this year which looks pretty darn aesthetically pleasing. [0] [0] https://blogs-images.forbes.com/amitchowdhry/files/2017/02/Project-NEON.jpg https://blogs-images.forbes.com/amitchowdhry/files/2017/02/P...
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - wueihgiug 10y ago
    i dunno...part of why i use Linux or MacOS is the knowledge that under the hood they're well designed. With Windows, no matter how good it looks, I feel like it's an ugly system, not to mention insecure.
    - raesene6 10y ago
      err modern windows has many good security measures and in many cases Microsoft are ahead of the curve in adopting new security techniques. For me "insecure windows" is an old trope and not particuarly accurate any more.
      - dawnerd 10y ago
        The most insecure part of the operating system is the user itself. You can only do so much to stop people from doing dumb things.
    - pdpi 10y ago
      How so? It's definitely an unfamiliar system, for me, and there might or might not be vulnerabilities in the current implementation, but I have no reason to believe that the windows NT model is intrinsically less secure than the unix model.
    - monsieurbanana 10y ago
      I just want to randomly poke in the discussion to say that out of the three big OS, MacOS user interface is the most vomit-inducing. I know this feeling isn't shared by most. Now that windows has nice workspaces and an already usable UNIX environnement (Windows Subsystem still has things to iron out, but it's very nice for a beta), my personal ranking became: Linux > Windows > MacOS I see nothing that MacOS offers that Windows doesn't, whereas Windows has potential for much better hardware specs, games, bigger user base. The only thing left for Apple is their 16:10 screen and their per-monitor scaling.
- return0 10y ago
  Most servers run linux, which means many developers are bound to access them remotely, which makes the desktop OS a bit irrelevant. And many people may work faster with windows desktop (win7 for me please, none of that tablet crap).
nostromo 10y ago
I wish Apple would just admit the trash can Mac Pro was a mistake and bring back the "cheese grater" Mac. Some people just need or want a beefy desktop built with upgradable components (in addition to a laptop). Or, crazy idea here, they could licence their OS if they don't want to make pro gear anymore.
- manmal 10y ago
  Licensing could easily eat up their laptop revenues though.
  - sleepychu 10y ago
    You think? With what, the chinese clones? I don't mind using macOS, it's a pretty nice experience, definitely nicer than windows but when I buy an Apple machine the thing I'm buying is definitely the hardware and I'm not convinced the clones do a good enough job of matching that, can I get 14 hours of battery life from the leading air-clone?
    - alex_hitchins 10y ago
      I am a Windows, Linux and macOS user (plus some PcBSD for good measure). I wonder why you much prefer macOS over Windows? I would agree that Apple have got 4k/retina displays done and that is much, much better than Windows. Is there anything else that you can identify as an advantage?
      - martin-adams 10y ago
        I did the transition from Windows to Mac last year after many years of having both and hating OSX while loving Windows. Now I love it. The event that changed everything was getting a 34" Ultrawide monitor and the Mac experience was just so much more solid and respective of the screen space. I can't quite put my finger on it but I felt more in control. I have a Surface Book on my desk, but my Macbook Air is what I use daily. For me, Mac wins with: - Predicable window management - everything stays where you put it - Tidier fonts and app bevels so it doesn't waste screen space - Access to apps like Sketch - No UI delays when using Adobe Premiere, despite the less capable hardware - definitely an issue on Windows - Much better command line support (not used the Windows Linux subsystem) - Apps are easier to handle and less bloatware - Notes app that is actually helpful - Fast with an SSD - absolutely rubbish without (my mac mini is unusable) - I have gotten used to clicking the window first, before it doing something in that app - so fewer accidental actions But, I do still love Windows, it wins on the following: - Better graphical support (ok, hardware specific) - Windows Explorer is much better than Finder for me - Window snapping is easier (but might be also frustrating, can't put my finger on it) - I can open multiple calculator instances - Wider app support, but less of an issue these days for what I use Windows does have a lot more bugs, such as incorrectly scaled cursors in Premiere, or apps that a impossibly small or stupidly large when using a non-retina second monitor.
pjmlp 10y ago
There is this misconception among HN folks that a developer is a UNIX guy, get real there are many kinds of developers. Many of us, developers, don't care 1 split second if the OS we are targeting has any kind of UNIX support. Mac is still a good platform for developers writing OS X, iOS, tvOS and watchOS applications.
- thirdsun 10y ago
  And yet you're arguing for this by replying to the top comment. You have a point but I think it's undeniable that a significant share of developers wants a UNIX environment. Me included.
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    It is called visibility. I don't deny there are developers that care about UNIX, and even I do care, occasionally. What I don't accept is that for whatever reason now to be a developer one has to breathe UNIX, as if there wasn't anything else a developer might be. This is yet another reason why sometimes I wish Apple had bought Be instead.
    - rubber_duck 10y ago
      I kind of agree with you but at the same time I've yet to see a system that sucks less than UNIX style systems. Unless we're talking game dev, real-time 3D graphics and such - then Windows is IMO unparalleled - I have not seen comparable tooling/driver support on other platforms - although I have not tried using Metal.
      - pjmlp 10y ago
        Thing is, a CLI is nice, but nothing that cannot be done better in language repls. UNIX architecture is the "Worse is better" from OS architectures and POSIX is irrelevant when one uses programming languages with rich runtimes.
        10y ago
return0 10y ago
I guess they are more popular with ordinary users, so they are focusing on that audience. No problem with that.
- dovdovdov 10y ago
  Or maybe, if you are a mac/iOS develpoer locked into the ecosystem, looking at the emojibar with a wtf face. I mean I knew what I got into, I just hoped Apple won't neglect the people made its platform desirable for the masses. I hope this is just a wave serving the 'starbucks pros', and next time we get to get a decent update.
- tech2 10y ago
  Except that new apple applications have to come from Apple users. If the devs aren't happy with what's available, that means fewer applications. Fewer applications means fewer users, fewer users means a less attractive base for devs... the spiral continues ever-downward.
ino 10y ago
If/when I leave macOS, it'll be for linux or bsd, not Windows. I have to use Windows 10 3-5 days a week and rare are the ones I don't curse at it.
- chrisper 10y ago
  Just curious, but have you tried the beta builds?
charlesdm 10y ago
> While Apple is focusing on trying to create the thinnest notebook on every generation, other companies are actually making useful computers, laptops or otherwise. I've purchased the second generation (new) Macbook this year, and must say, I'm delighted. I honestly don't get what all the fuss is about. It just works. Why would I change something that works really well with something that might work well?
- freekh 10y ago
  My new MacBook randomly crashes and the touch bar is a real nuisance. The wretched USB c only ports is a real pain for me. It's slower than my former MacBook Pro (which is strange) and the battery time is worse too. The most ridiculous thing though is that I need a bunch of adapters with my iPhone 7 to charge and sync it using my machine. If only there was a positive side to it I would probably be less unhappy but I cannot think of a single one. I do. not. understand what apple was thinking when releasing it. I'm not the only one at the office that have these issues either so I'm not the only one. And no: we don't have any weird stuff on it. It leaves me super conflicted: MacBooks used to be the safe choice for a high quality laptop. Now I don't know what my next device would be, but certainly won't be an apple product.
  - dimillian 10y ago
    Maybe you should have done a little case study before buying it? I replaced my 2012 mbP retina with the 2016 maxed one. It's a blast, the touch bar, while not that useful, just work and IS more useful than old functions keys. And it's fast, I don't see how it could be faster actually.
rayiner 10y ago
What's the viable alternative? I'm looking for a replacement for my 2013 rMBP. Every PC laptop has a fatal flaw. The Spectre x360 15 comes close, but has less battery life (despite having a slightly larger battery), is bigger and heavier, has only a dual core processor, and has a worse screen. The XPS 15 is another option. Even with a significantly larger battery it doesn't seem to have better stamina than the MBP. It's apparently been plagued by QA problems, and offers a choice only between a 1080p and power-hungry 4K (can't get high-DPI and 10 hour battery life in the same package). I suspect, looking at the sales numbers, that you're wrong. Apple is giving up on a certain group of users (who need fast GPUs). They gave on those users years ago by shipping crappy OpenGL drivers. But they've correctly perceived that common users don't want ports, or expandability. They want a fast machine with a great screen and all-day battery life, and they want to hit those metrics in the smallest package possible.
- pidg 10y ago
  I recently trashed my 2011 MBP (oops) and spent a month without it. I decided to try using my corporate-provided Surface Pro 4 instead to see how I could get on with a similar-spec Windows 10 PC for personal use. By the end of the month I had gone slightly loopy (seriously - MacBook withdrawl is real), gave up and bought a 2015 rMBP. Personally I find macOS, and its deep integration with Apple's hardware, too intuitive and 'invisible' to the way I work to give up on it.
  - Certhas 10y ago
    All that that tells me is that switching is hard. I use both Linux Mint and MacOS on a daily basis and I can't say that one really is better than the other. I'm sure it would be the same with Windows if not for the fact that I need some unix-y stuff. I do have a use case that I would really like to get on my primary laptop that neither Mac nor Linux currently offer: Detach screen and use stylus to annotate pdfs. If I was using windows on a surface this would be a major part of my workflow, and I would find it impossible to switch back. Doesn't prove that Windows is superior. (Maybe I will end up dualbooting Windows and Linux on a Surface or Yoga or some such thing eventually).
mcintyre1994 10y ago
We live in very different bubbles if you see common users being the most sticky Mac users. Almost every common user I know, with the exception of a few students, consider Macs ridiculously overpriced and buy <£500 laptops. Apple are moving further away from them users by increasing prices, and I think they'd rather they buy an iPad pro anyway (though I've never heard anyone non-technical say they want one).
- diego_moita 10y ago
  > We live in very different bubbles HN is a North American bubble, mostly Silicon Valley. Apple computers are a thing only in North America and parts of Europe.
  - wiz21c 10y ago
    Just out of curiosity : do you know what's "the thing" in, say, China or India ?
    - tomtheelder 10y ago
      While it doesn't tell the whole story, just looking at things like sales numbers and user agent stats gives you a pretty good idea of the relative popularity in different areas. Apple just has very little presence in some of these places, _especially_ for desktop. Take a look at: http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/all/united-states-of-america http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/all/united-states-... vs. http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/all/india http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/all/india
      - BatFastard 10y ago
        Interesting, but I don't consider iOS or Android a real operating system.
    - chrisper 10y ago
      Probably pirated Windows!
lrusnac 10y ago
I did kinda the same thing except I still keep my good ol' macbook air instead of a chromebook. Ubuntu on desktop and I can run stuff on it remotely and I got a lot more performance if I were to spend the money on a new macbook.
skdd8 10y ago
I am never going back to Windows -- of my own accord. What I did is, buy an XPS 13 preinstalled with Ubuntu 16.04. It is the best of both worlds: support for the latest hardware and trusted Unix like system cheers!
Cacti 10y ago
This has nothing to do with the focus on laptops and everything to do with the simple fact that the new Nvidia cards are not supported, and there doesn't seem to be any indication from either Nvidia or Apple that they are committed to providing that support. It's a strange problem, because there is plenty of demand for it, and I think we all appreciate the outsized role that GPUs play these days; to not offer support for 50-80% of the GPU market seems like a rather poor strategic decision. Particularly since you're really only talking about a team of 30 or 50 within Apple to help Nvidia, the drawbacks are minimal. This has been an ongoing problem since the summer. Some have reverted back to using several 9xx cards (which have spiked in price) while others have switched platforms. Lacking any real progress on this, I would suspect many in this situation would abandon OSX permanently by the end of the year. And if you give up OSX on your desktop, the incentive to stay in that environment on your laptop, tablet, and phone go way down. This is a serious problem and the only outcomes are either a) Nvidia GPUs are supported, or b) OSX is abandoned, because the simple fact is that Nvidia GPUs are more important long-term than the entire sum of Apple's hardware; I can replace a tablet or desktop or laptop, but I can't replace a Pascal TITAN X.
- yoden 10y ago
  Apple seems more interested in getting the higher margin from using AMD GPUs in at least some generations.
  - dmix 10y ago
    Supply chains being valued over product quality? This fits the "operations guy running the company" narrative.
orbitur 10y ago
> developers next Ehhhhh, as long as there's money to be had in iOS land, I'm not sure that's true. Contrary to internet commenters complaining that it's impossible to launch new iOS apps, iOS shops still make a ton of money. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- phaed 10y ago
  Developers don't need to be on a Mac. They can run OSX inside a VM on any OS they want.
  - hollerith 10y ago
    For sufficiently large firms, that is probably not true because the risk of getting sued for violating Apple's EULA is probably too high.
- gurkendoktor 10y ago
  Most developers use Macs to write Java, Ruby, PHP etc.; these are the developers who would leave first, and that would already cause a lot of damage to the ecosystem.
pwthornton 10y ago
If you can get away with using a Chromebook for a laptop, you might not really be the target user for the Macbook Pros. FWIW, I have found the new MacBook Pros fairly incredible. They are thinner and lighter, which is quite valuable for people who use notebooks on the go, while still being more powerful than their predecessors. If I had one complaint it's that they didn't keep around the old 15-inch chassis for a model with more ram and a bigger battery. Made just have one model and aim it at a very specific niche. But overall, they are very good notebooks. You can power multiple 5K displays from them for God's sakes.
acmecorps 10y ago
> Right now, I've decided to take the money I'd spend on the cheapest Macbook to buy a desktop system, plus a chromebook. I can have mobility and a lot of performance, for a fraction of the price. This is EXACTLY what I did. I build my own PC (after more than a decade not doing it) and bought an Acer R11. Couldn't be happier!
tolas 10y ago
Over the past 2 months I tried hard to "make the switch". I built up a nice shinny new PC, installed Windows and Arch Linux, and told myself I can do this. Two months later, and I removed WIndows from the box (ubuntu on windows is decent, but still doesn't run a default rails app), and am running Arch exclusively. While I like the setup, I realized that I will ALWAYS be at least 20% less productive on a WIndows/Linux box. The keyboard shortcuts, the UI inconstancies, and on linux the lack of native apps (specifically evernote) just didn't cut it for me. As trendy as it is to hate on Apple right now, MacOS is far and away the best operating system for developers and power users. It's not even close. Having a single main modifier key on apple (⌘) is SOO much faster and more productive than switching between (alt) and (ctrl) modifiers for switching windows, copy/pasting, new window/tab, etc. It just kills my workflow. I love my pc build and Arch Linux is pretty good. But I'm currently scoping craiglist for used iMac 5k's. The productivity loss just isn't worth it.

wyager 10y ago

> developers next, Why would developers switch from mac to windows? If they're alienated by what Apple is doing, they're unlikely to be happy with Microsoft. Linux, sure. Of course, I think this is exactly the sort of misprediction people on HN tend to make, where it turns out that (surprise) Apple actually knows more about market demands than random internet commentators. Remember how we were predicting that the new Touch Bar MacBook Pro would fail hard, but it ended up being the best selling MBP ever?

rodgerd 10y ago
> Of course, I think this is exactly the sort of misprediction people on HN tend to make, Says the guy who suggests Linux as a desktop.
- grive 10y ago
  Suggesting linux as a viable desktop is not equivalent to predicting that $CURRENT_YEAR is the year of the linux desktop. You being dismissive of the idea on this ground is illogical.
Baeocystin 10y ago
Best-selling? Sure, I can believe that. Pent-up demand alone likely accounts for much of it. Best-selling to developers? Not a chance.
- illuminati1911 10y ago
  Any statistics to back that up? Because some random hacker news comments dislike new MacBooks it doesn't mean other developers would. I find it hard to see any realistic alternatives for MacBooks in software development. They give you all the tools you need from the Windows world that are not available on linux like Office, Photoshop etc. and it is still a UNIX system which can do all the stuff that linux can without kernel panics, crashes, bugs and other crap. Also unlike Windows or Linux, a single macOS installation can last pretty much forever and doesn't need to reinstalled every year because of the lost performance like Windows. And last but not least MacBooks are well optimised for the hardware they run on which gives them 1.5-2.5 times the performance with the same hardware as on Windows or Linux. The whole thing about complaining about new MacBooks is same thing as with iPhones. People complain because it's trendy to whine about anything Apple does even if they would create eternal world peace and still everybody will buy them because there is nothing better or even similar on the market.
  - Baeocystin 10y ago
    You mean direct, market-research-supplied numbers? No. I am just one of thousands of people who makes a living in the tech world. What I can say is that 1) A very large portion of other devs I know use(d) MacBooks, and 2) A very large portion of them said "F this, I'm out" when Apple released their most recent machine. Many switched to Surfaces. Your hyperbole against Linux and Windows does your point no credit. Linux has been rock-stable for a very, very long time, and Windows 10 is a pleasure to use, particularly on touch-enabled devices. MS went through severe growing pains with Win8, but those days are past. And the OS/hardware combinations that have emerged since make Apple's offerings feel old and out of touch.
    - paulddraper 10y ago
      > Many switched to Surfaces They switched to Surfaces because they wanted power-user hardware?
      - 10y ago
weq 10y ago
Why would a developer be on a mac in the first place? Cause ur a fanboy? Cause ur against monopolys? If i need to build code that apple says can only be built on a mac, i simply spin up my mac VM and point some tools dont need to drink any koolaid to get the job done. MDI + keyboard skills beats vim ninjas any day of the week.
- adrianN 10y ago
  Back when the first intel macs came out, they actually were made for developers and were great machines.
  - ubernostrum 10y ago
    they actually were made for developers Apple has never, so far as I am aware, deliberately targeted developers as a primary audience of a laptop computer. Apple's laptops became popular because they ran an operating system that was Unix under the hood, with a nice UI and good set of non-developer applications, which made them good as machines a developer could use for work and for non-work (Linux on the desktop being not so great at the second part of that). Apple has certainly been happy to make money from developers buying laptops as a result of this, but has consistently ignored the expressed wishes and desires of developers when updating its laptop lines, meaning Apple was popular in spite of Apple's indifference, rather than because Apple lovingly catered to this audience. In other words: if you were looking for an executive to run around the stage screaming "DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS!", I think that was probably some other company, and they got ridiculed for it...
    - Lio 10y ago
      I believe you are mistaken. Apple has certainly courted scientific and other developers before. Here's an article about when they stopped targeting science. https://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/apple-drops-science-as-core-market-web-page-deleted https://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/apple-drops-science-...
      - 10y ago
romanovcode 10y ago
When Linux Subsystem will be finally finished I personally don't see any reason to use Linux as desktop environment. As for MacOS looks - Windows also are releasing update to their visuals this year which looks pretty darn aesthetically pleasing. [0] [0] https://blogs-images.forbes.com/amitchowdhry/files/2017/02/Project-NEON.jpg https://blogs-images.forbes.com/amitchowdhry/files/2017/02/P...
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- wueihgiug 10y ago
  i dunno...part of why i use Linux or MacOS is the knowledge that under the hood they're well designed. With Windows, no matter how good it looks, I feel like it's an ugly system, not to mention insecure.
  - raesene6 10y ago
    err modern windows has many good security measures and in many cases Microsoft are ahead of the curve in adopting new security techniques. For me "insecure windows" is an old trope and not particuarly accurate any more.
    - dawnerd 10y ago
      The most insecure part of the operating system is the user itself. You can only do so much to stop people from doing dumb things.
  - pdpi 10y ago
    How so? It's definitely an unfamiliar system, for me, and there might or might not be vulnerabilities in the current implementation, but I have no reason to believe that the windows NT model is intrinsically less secure than the unix model.
  - monsieurbanana 10y ago
    I just want to randomly poke in the discussion to say that out of the three big OS, MacOS user interface is the most vomit-inducing. I know this feeling isn't shared by most. Now that windows has nice workspaces and an already usable UNIX environnement (Windows Subsystem still has things to iron out, but it's very nice for a beta), my personal ranking became: Linux > Windows > MacOS I see nothing that MacOS offers that Windows doesn't, whereas Windows has potential for much better hardware specs, games, bigger user base. The only thing left for Apple is their 16:10 screen and their per-monitor scaling.
return0 10y ago
Most servers run linux, which means many developers are bound to access them remotely, which makes the desktop OS a bit irrelevant. And many people may work faster with windows desktop (win7 for me please, none of that tablet crap).

nostromo 10y ago

I wish Apple would just admit the trash can Mac Pro was a mistake and bring back the "cheese grater" Mac. Some people just need or want a beefy desktop built with upgradable components (in addition to a laptop). Or, crazy idea here, they could licence their OS if they don't want to make pro gear anymore.

manmal 10y ago
Licensing could easily eat up their laptop revenues though.
- sleepychu 10y ago
  You think? With what, the chinese clones? I don't mind using macOS, it's a pretty nice experience, definitely nicer than windows but when I buy an Apple machine the thing I'm buying is definitely the hardware and I'm not convinced the clones do a good enough job of matching that, can I get 14 hours of battery life from the leading air-clone?
  - alex_hitchins 10y ago
    I am a Windows, Linux and macOS user (plus some PcBSD for good measure). I wonder why you much prefer macOS over Windows? I would agree that Apple have got 4k/retina displays done and that is much, much better than Windows. Is there anything else that you can identify as an advantage?
    - martin-adams 10y ago
      I did the transition from Windows to Mac last year after many years of having both and hating OSX while loving Windows. Now I love it. The event that changed everything was getting a 34" Ultrawide monitor and the Mac experience was just so much more solid and respective of the screen space. I can't quite put my finger on it but I felt more in control. I have a Surface Book on my desk, but my Macbook Air is what I use daily. For me, Mac wins with: - Predicable window management - everything stays where you put it - Tidier fonts and app bevels so it doesn't waste screen space - Access to apps like Sketch - No UI delays when using Adobe Premiere, despite the less capable hardware - definitely an issue on Windows - Much better command line support (not used the Windows Linux subsystem) - Apps are easier to handle and less bloatware - Notes app that is actually helpful - Fast with an SSD - absolutely rubbish without (my mac mini is unusable) - I have gotten used to clicking the window first, before it doing something in that app - so fewer accidental actions But, I do still love Windows, it wins on the following: - Better graphical support (ok, hardware specific) - Windows Explorer is much better than Finder for me - Window snapping is easier (but might be also frustrating, can't put my finger on it) - I can open multiple calculator instances - Wider app support, but less of an issue these days for what I use Windows does have a lot more bugs, such as incorrectly scaled cursors in Premiere, or apps that a impossibly small or stupidly large when using a non-retina second monitor.

pjmlp 10y ago

There is this misconception among HN folks that a developer is a UNIX guy, get real there are many kinds of developers. Many of us, developers, don't care 1 split second if the OS we are targeting has any kind of UNIX support. Mac is still a good platform for developers writing OS X, iOS, tvOS and watchOS applications.

thirdsun 10y ago
And yet you're arguing for this by replying to the top comment. You have a point but I think it's undeniable that a significant share of developers wants a UNIX environment. Me included.
- pjmlp 10y ago
  It is called visibility. I don't deny there are developers that care about UNIX, and even I do care, occasionally. What I don't accept is that for whatever reason now to be a developer one has to breathe UNIX, as if there wasn't anything else a developer might be. This is yet another reason why sometimes I wish Apple had bought Be instead.
  - rubber_duck 10y ago
    I kind of agree with you but at the same time I've yet to see a system that sucks less than UNIX style systems. Unless we're talking game dev, real-time 3D graphics and such - then Windows is IMO unparalleled - I have not seen comparable tooling/driver support on other platforms - although I have not tried using Metal.
    - pjmlp 10y ago
      Thing is, a CLI is nice, but nothing that cannot be done better in language repls. UNIX architecture is the "Worse is better" from OS architectures and POSIX is irrelevant when one uses programming languages with rich runtimes.
      - 10y ago

return0 10y ago

I guess they are more popular with ordinary users, so they are focusing on that audience. No problem with that.

dovdovdov 10y ago
Or maybe, if you are a mac/iOS develpoer locked into the ecosystem, looking at the emojibar with a wtf face. I mean I knew what I got into, I just hoped Apple won't neglect the people made its platform desirable for the masses. I hope this is just a wave serving the 'starbucks pros', and next time we get to get a decent update.
tech2 10y ago
Except that new apple applications have to come from Apple users. If the devs aren't happy with what's available, that means fewer applications. Fewer applications means fewer users, fewer users means a less attractive base for devs... the spiral continues ever-downward.

ino 10y ago

If/when I leave macOS, it'll be for linux or bsd, not Windows. I have to use Windows 10 3-5 days a week and rare are the ones I don't curse at it.

chrisper 10y ago
Just curious, but have you tried the beta builds?

charlesdm 10y ago

> While Apple is focusing on trying to create the thinnest notebook on every generation, other companies are actually making useful computers, laptops or otherwise. I've purchased the second generation (new) Macbook this year, and must say, I'm delighted. I honestly don't get what all the fuss is about. It just works. Why would I change something that works really well with something that might work well?

freekh 10y ago
My new MacBook randomly crashes and the touch bar is a real nuisance. The wretched USB c only ports is a real pain for me. It's slower than my former MacBook Pro (which is strange) and the battery time is worse too. The most ridiculous thing though is that I need a bunch of adapters with my iPhone 7 to charge and sync it using my machine. If only there was a positive side to it I would probably be less unhappy but I cannot think of a single one. I do. not. understand what apple was thinking when releasing it. I'm not the only one at the office that have these issues either so I'm not the only one. And no: we don't have any weird stuff on it. It leaves me super conflicted: MacBooks used to be the safe choice for a high quality laptop. Now I don't know what my next device would be, but certainly won't be an apple product.
- dimillian 10y ago
  Maybe you should have done a little case study before buying it? I replaced my 2012 mbP retina with the 2016 maxed one. It's a blast, the touch bar, while not that useful, just work and IS more useful than old functions keys. And it's fast, I don't see how it could be faster actually.

rayiner 10y ago

What's the viable alternative? I'm looking for a replacement for my 2013 rMBP. Every PC laptop has a fatal flaw. The Spectre x360 15 comes close, but has less battery life (despite having a slightly larger battery), is bigger and heavier, has only a dual core processor, and has a worse screen. The XPS 15 is another option. Even with a significantly larger battery it doesn't seem to have better stamina than the MBP. It's apparently been plagued by QA problems, and offers a choice only between a 1080p and power-hungry 4K (can't get high-DPI and 10 hour battery life in the same package). I suspect, looking at the sales numbers, that you're wrong. Apple is giving up on a certain group of users (who need fast GPUs). They gave on those users years ago by shipping crappy OpenGL drivers. But they've correctly perceived that common users don't want ports, or expandability. They want a fast machine with a great screen and all-day battery life, and they want to hit those metrics in the smallest package possible.

pidg 10y ago
I recently trashed my 2011 MBP (oops) and spent a month without it. I decided to try using my corporate-provided Surface Pro 4 instead to see how I could get on with a similar-spec Windows 10 PC for personal use. By the end of the month I had gone slightly loopy (seriously - MacBook withdrawl is real), gave up and bought a 2015 rMBP. Personally I find macOS, and its deep integration with Apple's hardware, too intuitive and 'invisible' to the way I work to give up on it.
- Certhas 10y ago
  All that that tells me is that switching is hard. I use both Linux Mint and MacOS on a daily basis and I can't say that one really is better than the other. I'm sure it would be the same with Windows if not for the fact that I need some unix-y stuff. I do have a use case that I would really like to get on my primary laptop that neither Mac nor Linux currently offer: Detach screen and use stylus to annotate pdfs. If I was using windows on a surface this would be a major part of my workflow, and I would find it impossible to switch back. Doesn't prove that Windows is superior. (Maybe I will end up dualbooting Windows and Linux on a Surface or Yoga or some such thing eventually).

mcintyre1994 10y ago

We live in very different bubbles if you see common users being the most sticky Mac users. Almost every common user I know, with the exception of a few students, consider Macs ridiculously overpriced and buy <£500 laptops. Apple are moving further away from them users by increasing prices, and I think they'd rather they buy an iPad pro anyway (though I've never heard anyone non-technical say they want one).

diego_moita 10y ago
> We live in very different bubbles HN is a North American bubble, mostly Silicon Valley. Apple computers are a thing only in North America and parts of Europe.
- wiz21c 10y ago
  Just out of curiosity : do you know what's "the thing" in, say, China or India ?
  - tomtheelder 10y ago
    While it doesn't tell the whole story, just looking at things like sales numbers and user agent stats gives you a pretty good idea of the relative popularity in different areas. Apple just has very little presence in some of these places, _especially_ for desktop. Take a look at: http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/all/united-states-of-america http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/all/united-states-... vs. http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/all/india http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/all/india
    - BatFastard 10y ago
      Interesting, but I don't consider iOS or Android a real operating system.
  - chrisper 10y ago
    Probably pirated Windows!

lrusnac 10y ago

I did kinda the same thing except I still keep my good ol' macbook air instead of a chromebook. Ubuntu on desktop and I can run stuff on it remotely and I got a lot more performance if I were to spend the money on a new macbook.

skdd8 10y ago

I am never going back to Windows -- of my own accord. What I did is, buy an XPS 13 preinstalled with Ubuntu 16.04. It is the best of both worlds: support for the latest hardware and trusted Unix like system cheers!

Cacti 10y ago

This has nothing to do with the focus on laptops and everything to do with the simple fact that the new Nvidia cards are not supported, and there doesn't seem to be any indication from either Nvidia or Apple that they are committed to providing that support. It's a strange problem, because there is plenty of demand for it, and I think we all appreciate the outsized role that GPUs play these days; to not offer support for 50-80% of the GPU market seems like a rather poor strategic decision. Particularly since you're really only talking about a team of 30 or 50 within Apple to help Nvidia, the drawbacks are minimal. This has been an ongoing problem since the summer. Some have reverted back to using several 9xx cards (which have spiked in price) while others have switched platforms. Lacking any real progress on this, I would suspect many in this situation would abandon OSX permanently by the end of the year. And if you give up OSX on your desktop, the incentive to stay in that environment on your laptop, tablet, and phone go way down. This is a serious problem and the only outcomes are either a) Nvidia GPUs are supported, or b) OSX is abandoned, because the simple fact is that Nvidia GPUs are more important long-term than the entire sum of Apple's hardware; I can replace a tablet or desktop or laptop, but I can't replace a Pascal TITAN X.

yoden 10y ago
Apple seems more interested in getting the higher margin from using AMD GPUs in at least some generations.
- dmix 10y ago
  Supply chains being valued over product quality? This fits the "operations guy running the company" narrative.

orbitur 10y ago

> developers next Ehhhhh, as long as there's money to be had in iOS land, I'm not sure that's true. Contrary to internet commenters complaining that it's impossible to launch new iOS apps, iOS shops still make a ton of money. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

phaed 10y ago
Developers don't need to be on a Mac. They can run OSX inside a VM on any OS they want.
- hollerith 10y ago
  For sufficiently large firms, that is probably not true because the risk of getting sued for violating Apple's EULA is probably too high.
gurkendoktor 10y ago
Most developers use Macs to write Java, Ruby, PHP etc.; these are the developers who would leave first, and that would already cause a lot of damage to the ecosystem.

pwthornton 10y ago

If you can get away with using a Chromebook for a laptop, you might not really be the target user for the Macbook Pros. FWIW, I have found the new MacBook Pros fairly incredible. They are thinner and lighter, which is quite valuable for people who use notebooks on the go, while still being more powerful than their predecessors. If I had one complaint it's that they didn't keep around the old 15-inch chassis for a model with more ram and a bigger battery. Made just have one model and aim it at a very specific niche. But overall, they are very good notebooks. You can power multiple 5K displays from them for God's sakes.

acmecorps 10y ago

> Right now, I've decided to take the money I'd spend on the cheapest Macbook to buy a desktop system, plus a chromebook. I can have mobility and a lot of performance, for a fraction of the price. This is EXACTLY what I did. I build my own PC (after more than a decade not doing it) and bought an Acer R11. Couldn't be happier!

tolas 10y ago

Over the past 2 months I tried hard to "make the switch". I built up a nice shinny new PC, installed Windows and Arch Linux, and told myself I can do this. Two months later, and I removed WIndows from the box (ubuntu on windows is decent, but still doesn't run a default rails app), and am running Arch exclusively. While I like the setup, I realized that I will ALWAYS be at least 20% less productive on a WIndows/Linux box. The keyboard shortcuts, the UI inconstancies, and on linux the lack of native apps (specifically evernote) just didn't cut it for me. As trendy as it is to hate on Apple right now, MacOS is far and away the best operating system for developers and power users. It's not even close. Having a single main modifier key on apple (⌘) is SOO much faster and more productive than switching between (alt) and (ctrl) modifiers for switching windows, copy/pasting, new window/tab, etc. It just kills my workflow. I love my pc build and Arch Linux is pretty good. But I'm currently scoping craiglist for used iMac 5k's. The productivity loss just isn't worth it.