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Does VX explain how the two women survived despite using bare hands to administer an apparently skin-absorbable poison? It has binary agent formulations, so eac
by gwern 10y ago
Does VX explain how the two women survived despite using bare hands to administer an apparently skin-absorbable poison? It has binary agent formulations, so each women could have one half on her hand and avoid any contamination by swiping very fast.
- sparky_z 10y agoDo we know they were bare-handed?
- philip1209 10y agoSeems to have been a spray bottle of some kind? > Family members and Indonesian officials have said they believe she was tricked into thinking that the attack on Mr. Kim was part of a comedy video, involving spraying liquid on unwitting victims in public. The Malaysian authorities have said that both women were aware that the liquid was toxic.
- ericdykstra 10y agoTricking two people into using binary chemical weapons to kill someone under the guise of it being a prank sounds like something out of Hitman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitman_(series) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitman_(series)). I find it highly unlikely this kind of high-profile assassination would be left up to unwitting amateurs to carry out, though.
- rangibaby 10y ago> I find it highly unlikely this kind of high-profile assassination would be left up to unwitting amateurs to carry out, though. I would have agreed, but the LOL shirt? Whoever set this up (DPRK or not) has a very dark sense of humor.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- crdb 10y ago> While addressing a spellbound audience of young officers, he would sometimes partially immerse one finger in a small beaker of pure VX for a few seconds. Without interrupting his lecture, he would then amble to a nearby sink and casually wash the deadly chemical from his finger. The teaching point was that VX could not enter the skin instantaneously, and that accidental exposure of a small area would not be harmful as long as the site were promptly and thoroughly decontaminated. https://www.amazon.com/Chemical-Warfare-Secrets-Almost-Forgotten/dp/B01FKTZP3W/ https://www.amazon.com/Chemical-Warfare-Secrets-Almost-Forgo... - Chemical Warfare Secrets Almost Forgotten: A Personal Story of Medical Testing of Army Volunteers, by James S. Ketchum MD
- jszymborski 10y agoI'm grateful for the edification, but dude, that's a very specific reference from a >$100 (text?)book on a very particular subject. I'm afraid to ask about your background :P
- mendelk 10y agoWelcome to HN :) It's one of the reasons I leave this site every day feeling wonderfully inadequate :)
- DKnoll 10y agoLibrary Genesis.
- mombul 10y agoThanks for the elaborate answer.
- __jal 10y agoWhy are so many questions about the background of people displaying knowledge in this thread? That is what I'm finding disturbing. I don't know anything about nerve gas, but do know about a couple topics that I suspect would trigger the same people, and it creeps me out that people become suspicious about someone for simply knowing something. Probably worth keeping in mind that not a few people put cryptography in the same "military secrets" bucket.
- eck 10y agoIt could have been an accident that they survived. In this case the assassins dying along with the victim is a feature, not a bug.
- raverbashing 10y agoIf the case is that the "assassins" were bystanders that were convinced to participate into it, it is highly probable they were expendable
- rudolf0 10y agoTrue, but I feel like if they wanted to ensure their death, they could've just wiped them with the same rag after Kim was confirmed to be exposed. It seems they just let them go, so I guess they didn't care either one way or the other about their survival?
- tlow 10y agoPlease see my comment with regard to respiratory versus dermal administration. Further almost all research with regards to these agents has been military and thus is not widely shared or known. Even further, the Soviets spent more than 30 years developing 3rd generation nerve agents that would be undetectable by NATO.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novichok_agent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novichok_agent
- saycheese 10y agoThey likely took the antidotes that are available for VX right before, chemical-resistant gloves, applied the VX in non-binary form, then washed their hands in bleach and washed it off with water.
- tlow 10y agoNo. This is wrong. The far better approach would be "Pharmacologic prophylaxis against nerve agent poisoning." [1] A prophylaxis agent is NOT an antidote. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15792266 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15792266
- arjie 10y agoIsn't taking the antidote preemptively a valid form of prophylaxis? What do you mean by contrasting the two things?
- danbruc 10y agoA prophylaxis is aimed at preventing an agent from unfolding its effect, an antidote is aimed at reversing its effects. An antidote can only be used as a prophylaxis if it has no adverse effects in the absence of the effect caused by the agent.
- arjie 10y agoThank you for your comment. I'm familiar with that. I'm asking about this case.
- lawless123 10y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atropine#Side-effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atropine#Side-effects
- arjie 10y ago
- coconut_crab 10y agoI read somewhere that they wore gloves before applying the poison. Wikipedia has something interesting about VX: > VX can also be delivered in binary chemical weapons which mix in-flight to form the agent prior to release. Binary VX is referred to as VX2,[6] and is created by mixing O-(2-diisopropylaminoethyl) O′-ethyl methylphosphonite (Agent QL) with elemental sulfur (Agent NE) as is done in the Bigeye aerial chemical bomb. So maybe two of them were holding different component and they only reacted after being sprayed on Kim's face. If this is true then this is a very intricate assassination plan.
- gwern 10y agoYes, that's what I meant.
- asdz 10y agoI'm wondering, the first one would be safe for sure, but how would the second one that apply it be safe? The chemical would have react by the time she apply it right? And since she (either the Indonesian / Vietnamese) got the reacted chemical, wouldn't she die too?
- goodcanadian 10y agoThe BBC article (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-39073389 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-39073389) mentions that one of the two women who interacted with Kim also became ill, and also that the woman who "accosted" him immediately went to wash her hands. It is not clear to me if this is the same woman or the other one.
- abe_duarte 10y agoI bet they administered themselves atropine soon after. But your theory is really cool, each of them had half of the nerve gas, the second's hand would have been contaminated. This thing will go through your skin.
- epmaybe 10y agoprobably not atropine, a more reversible drug like physostigmine might be better.
- mtw 10y agoThe women were expendable and I don't think they knew it was VX, or what VX was. It's most likely they trained with another substance, and were not even told who, where and when the final act would be done.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]