5 ms·

For those of you unaware, it's illegal to be caught without your green card. That much is not new. http://immigrationroad.com/blog/do-i-have-to-carry-my-green-

by danjoc 10y ago

For those of you unaware, it's illegal to be caught without your green card. That much is not new. http://immigrationroad.com/blog/do-i-have-to-carry-my-green-card-around/ http://immigrationroad.com/blog/do-i-have-to-carry-my-green-...

derefr 10y ago
But it's not illegal for a US citizen to be carrying no form of identification, which makes "you have no papers" kind of a flimsy argument: how do you know the person is not, in fact, a citizen? Especially on a domestic flight, where there was nothing forcing any of the US citizens on the flight to bring travel documents like a passport with them.
- masonic 10y ago
  But it's not illegal for a US citizen to be carrying no form of identification On a commercial flight? Of course it is. This is different from accosting a pedestrian on a street without probable cause. [EDIT: Note what the regulation actually says: "If your identity is confirmed, you will be allowed to enter the screening checkpoint." (That does NOT, in itself, include boarding a plane.) Continuing: "You may be subject to additional screening. You will not be allowed to fly if your identity cannot be confirmed, you chose to not provide proper identification or you decline to cooperate with the identity verification process." So, had there been passengers for which a knowing exception had been made, the investigators would have known that going in. So, it's wrong to say that "it's illegal" to be on a commercial flight in that case, but for the purpose of this specific search, any such granted variances would have had to be on record, and known to the investigators.
  - maxerickson 10y ago
    TSA say that they will allow people to fly without documents: https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification (they treat it as an exception, but it is right there on their website)
  - GavinMcG 10y ago
    That's just not true. I've gotten on planes without ID before, after losing my driver's license. I got patted down extra thoroughly, but there's no issue of legality.
    - outericky 10y ago
      This. It is very possible to fly without ID. Have done it several times due to lost wallet/id. Takes longer. And there is more verification. But def possible.
      - morgante 10y ago
        Indeed. And that's not an anachronism, I just did it 2 years ago when I forgot my license. Just had to show them a credit card.
        AckSyn 10y ago
        I did it last week when I accidentally shipped my wallet containing my drivers license and passport home before flying home. It's nothing more serious than waiting a little more before getting through the line.
    - dingaling 10y ago
      It's interesting that you can fly without ID ( airlines in the UK closed that hole years ago to prevent ticket resale ) but I'm confused why that led to additional pat-down scrutiny. Surely the thoroughness physical screening should be orthogonal to identity? Otherwise it suggests that someone who does have ID to fly receives less scrutiny, which is a security vulnerability. To invert: everyone boarding an aircraft should be physically screened to the same extent.
  - awalton 10y ago
    Adding another "It's completely possible" data point. I've done it at least twice (probably more, but I only remember the twice due to the "enhanced patdown" I received being a bit...touchy-feely...)
- zkms 10y ago
  also note that it's currently (idk how that will change with the clusterfuck that is REAL ID, though) legal and possible to board a domestic flight without any forms of ID. https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification
- danjoc 10y ago
  >how do you know the person is not, in fact, a citizen? By checking their ID? Don't you think it's a little hypocritical of you? You seem just fine with green card holders being subjected to something you yourself would not stand for. My spouse has a green card. I find the requirement rather onerous given the level of scrutiny required to get one. Edit: Oh yes. Let the down votes begin. How many DHS officials looked through your wedding photos? ID requirements are fine for "those" people.
  - derefr 10y ago
    Errr... you didn't parse the context of what I said, did you? They wouldn't have an ID to check. My point was that if you're not carrying any form of identification, there's no way for anyone to prove you're not a US citizen. And that that's a good thing, because the perspective of American law is that you need positive proof that someone is an illegal immigrant to arrest them, rather than just a lack of proof of them being a US citizen. Because—crucially—it's perfectly customary for US citizens to walk around without such proof, and so the law can't work any other way. This creates a loophole for those who lose, forget, or never had green cards: if you just avoid carrying any ID, you can, when questioned, say you're a US citizen who left their ID at home. It's then up to the other party to prove otherwise; until they do, they can't detain you, because you're presumably a US citizen without their ID and there is no crime in that. This didn't used to be a feasible thing to do, because you are required to carry some form of ID if you want to operate a motor vehicle, and the US is a big sprawl that requires most people to be operating motor vehicles at least some of the time. But as the US gradually builds up metropolitan areas with public transit systems, this becomes less of a concern; for many Americans, there's nothing they do on an average day that requires an ID, and they'd be fine without it. (Also, re: "something you yourself would not stand for"—I'm not an American myself. I just like contrived discussions of law.)

by danjoc 10y ago

derefr 10y ago

But it's not illegal for a US citizen to be carrying no form of identification, which makes "you have no papers" kind of a flimsy argument: how do you know the person is not, in fact, a citizen? Especially on a domestic flight, where there was nothing forcing any of the US citizens on the flight to bring travel documents like a passport with them.

masonic 10y ago
But it's not illegal for a US citizen to be carrying no form of identification On a commercial flight? Of course it is. This is different from accosting a pedestrian on a street without probable cause. [EDIT: Note what the regulation actually says: "If your identity is confirmed, you will be allowed to enter the screening checkpoint." (That does NOT, in itself, include boarding a plane.) Continuing: "You may be subject to additional screening. You will not be allowed to fly if your identity cannot be confirmed, you chose to not provide proper identification or you decline to cooperate with the identity verification process." So, had there been passengers for which a knowing exception had been made, the investigators would have known that going in. So, it's wrong to say that "it's illegal" to be on a commercial flight in that case, but for the purpose of this specific search, any such granted variances would have had to be on record, and known to the investigators.
- maxerickson 10y ago
  TSA say that they will allow people to fly without documents: https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification (they treat it as an exception, but it is right there on their website)
- GavinMcG 10y ago
  That's just not true. I've gotten on planes without ID before, after losing my driver's license. I got patted down extra thoroughly, but there's no issue of legality.
  - outericky 10y ago
    This. It is very possible to fly without ID. Have done it several times due to lost wallet/id. Takes longer. And there is more verification. But def possible.
    - morgante 10y ago
      Indeed. And that's not an anachronism, I just did it 2 years ago when I forgot my license. Just had to show them a credit card.
      - AckSyn 10y ago
        I did it last week when I accidentally shipped my wallet containing my drivers license and passport home before flying home. It's nothing more serious than waiting a little more before getting through the line.
  - dingaling 10y ago
    It's interesting that you can fly without ID ( airlines in the UK closed that hole years ago to prevent ticket resale ) but I'm confused why that led to additional pat-down scrutiny. Surely the thoroughness physical screening should be orthogonal to identity? Otherwise it suggests that someone who does have ID to fly receives less scrutiny, which is a security vulnerability. To invert: everyone boarding an aircraft should be physically screened to the same extent.
- awalton 10y ago
  Adding another "It's completely possible" data point. I've done it at least twice (probably more, but I only remember the twice due to the "enhanced patdown" I received being a bit...touchy-feely...)
zkms 10y ago
also note that it's currently (idk how that will change with the clusterfuck that is REAL ID, though) legal and possible to board a domestic flight without any forms of ID. https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification
danjoc 10y ago
>how do you know the person is not, in fact, a citizen? By checking their ID? Don't you think it's a little hypocritical of you? You seem just fine with green card holders being subjected to something you yourself would not stand for. My spouse has a green card. I find the requirement rather onerous given the level of scrutiny required to get one. Edit: Oh yes. Let the down votes begin. How many DHS officials looked through your wedding photos? ID requirements are fine for "those" people.
- derefr 10y ago
  Errr... you didn't parse the context of what I said, did you? They wouldn't have an ID to check. My point was that if you're not carrying any form of identification, there's no way for anyone to prove you're not a US citizen. And that that's a good thing, because the perspective of American law is that you need positive proof that someone is an illegal immigrant to arrest them, rather than just a lack of proof of them being a US citizen. Because—crucially—it's perfectly customary for US citizens to walk around without such proof, and so the law can't work any other way. This creates a loophole for those who lose, forget, or never had green cards: if you just avoid carrying any ID, you can, when questioned, say you're a US citizen who left their ID at home. It's then up to the other party to prove otherwise; until they do, they can't detain you, because you're presumably a US citizen without their ID and there is no crime in that. This didn't used to be a feasible thing to do, because you are required to carry some form of ID if you want to operate a motor vehicle, and the US is a big sprawl that requires most people to be operating motor vehicles at least some of the time. But as the US gradually builds up metropolitan areas with public transit systems, this becomes less of a concern; for many Americans, there's nothing they do on an average day that requires an ID, and they'd be fine without it. (Also, re: "something you yourself would not stand for"—I'm not an American myself. I just like contrived discussions of law.)