7 ms·

Federal agents make domestic flight passengers show ID to disembark plane

49 points by WillyOnWheels 10y ago

danjoc 10y ago
For those of you unaware, it's illegal to be caught without your green card. That much is not new. http://immigrationroad.com/blog/do-i-have-to-carry-my-green-card-around/ http://immigrationroad.com/blog/do-i-have-to-carry-my-green-...
- derefr 10y ago
  But it's not illegal for a US citizen to be carrying no form of identification, which makes "you have no papers" kind of a flimsy argument: how do you know the person is not, in fact, a citizen? Especially on a domestic flight, where there was nothing forcing any of the US citizens on the flight to bring travel documents like a passport with them.
  - masonic 10y ago
    But it's not illegal for a US citizen to be carrying no form of identification On a commercial flight? Of course it is. This is different from accosting a pedestrian on a street without probable cause. [EDIT: Note what the regulation actually says: "If your identity is confirmed, you will be allowed to enter the screening checkpoint." (That does NOT, in itself, include boarding a plane.) Continuing: "You may be subject to additional screening. You will not be allowed to fly if your identity cannot be confirmed, you chose to not provide proper identification or you decline to cooperate with the identity verification process." So, had there been passengers for which a knowing exception had been made, the investigators would have known that going in. So, it's wrong to say that "it's illegal" to be on a commercial flight in that case, but for the purpose of this specific search, any such granted variances would have had to be on record, and known to the investigators.
    - maxerickson 10y ago
      TSA say that they will allow people to fly without documents: https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification (they treat it as an exception, but it is right there on their website)
    - GavinMcG 10y ago
      That's just not true. I've gotten on planes without ID before, after losing my driver's license. I got patted down extra thoroughly, but there's no issue of legality.
      - outericky 10y ago
        This. It is very possible to fly without ID. Have done it several times due to lost wallet/id. Takes longer. And there is more verification. But def possible.
        morgante 10y ago
        Indeed. And that's not an anachronism, I just did it 2 years ago when I forgot my license. Just had to show them a credit card.
        AckSyn 10y ago
        I did it last week when I accidentally shipped my wallet containing my drivers license and passport home before flying home. It's nothing more serious than waiting a little more before getting through the line.
      - dingaling 10y ago
        It's interesting that you can fly without ID ( airlines in the UK closed that hole years ago to prevent ticket resale ) but I'm confused why that led to additional pat-down scrutiny. Surely the thoroughness physical screening should be orthogonal to identity? Otherwise it suggests that someone who does have ID to fly receives less scrutiny, which is a security vulnerability. To invert: everyone boarding an aircraft should be physically screened to the same extent.
  - zkms 10y ago
    also note that it's currently (idk how that will change with the clusterfuck that is REAL ID, though) legal and possible to board a domestic flight without any forms of ID. https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification
  - danjoc 10y ago
    >how do you know the person is not, in fact, a citizen? By checking their ID? Don't you think it's a little hypocritical of you? You seem just fine with green card holders being subjected to something you yourself would not stand for. My spouse has a green card. I find the requirement rather onerous given the level of scrutiny required to get one. Edit: Oh yes. Let the down votes begin. How many DHS officials looked through your wedding photos? ID requirements are fine for "those" people.
    - derefr 10y ago
      Errr... you didn't parse the context of what I said, did you? They wouldn't have an ID to check. My point was that if you're not carrying any form of identification, there's no way for anyone to prove you're not a US citizen. And that that's a good thing, because the perspective of American law is that you need positive proof that someone is an illegal immigrant to arrest them, rather than just a lack of proof of them being a US citizen. Because—crucially—it's perfectly customary for US citizens to walk around without such proof, and so the law can't work any other way. This creates a loophole for those who lose, forget, or never had green cards: if you just avoid carrying any ID, you can, when questioned, say you're a US citizen who left their ID at home. It's then up to the other party to prove otherwise; until they do, they can't detain you, because you're presumably a US citizen without their ID and there is no crime in that. This didn't used to be a feasible thing to do, because you are required to carry some form of ID if you want to operate a motor vehicle, and the US is a big sprawl that requires most people to be operating motor vehicles at least some of the time. But as the US gradually builds up metropolitan areas with public transit systems, this becomes less of a concern; for many Americans, there's nothing they do on an average day that requires an ID, and they'd be fine without it. (Also, re: "something you yourself would not stand for"—I'm not an American myself. I just like contrived discussions of law.)
LyndsySimon 10y ago
Is there any evidence anyone refused? If not, then they can frame it as consensual and no one will have standing to challenge it.
- maxerickson 10y ago
  Hurray!
walrus01 10y ago
pick up that can
LyalinDotCom 10y ago
Would love to know the legal details behind this scenario and what rights people actually have to be stopped by various types of law enforcement, in such a simple case as just leaving a flight you were just legally on.
- morgante 10y ago
  Constitutionally, they don't have a leg to stand on. The police cannot demand your ID without probable cause. I wonder what would have happened if someone refused.
  - leereeves 10y ago
    This really isn't unusual. I was once stopped and asked for my ID (and other questions) because someone had committed a robbery in the area. People are routinely stopped at checkpoints when crossing state lines, when police are searching for someone, and at "dragnets" for DUI and immigration. And yet, suddenly, the left-wing media cares? Could that have anything to do with their candidate (Hillary) having lost the election? They're going to exploit anything they can to make Trump look bad, just as the right-wing did when Obama was in office.
    - morgante 10y ago
      I agree it's not unusual and I doubt this has anything to do with Trump. That doesn't change the fact that it's unconstitutional to require ID. "Dragnets" are not a good thing. There's a reason people often use them as a synonym for invasive and authoritarian tactics.
      - leereeves 10y ago
        I'm just commenting on the media's sudden interest, which I think has everything to do with their opposition to Trump. I (and many people on both sides) have been opposed to dragnets (including DUI and immigration dragnets) for a long time. DAE remember when right wingers were mocked for those videos in which they simply responded "Am I being detained?"
cbanek 10y ago
This is incredibly disturbing. This reminds me of all the random border patrol checkpoints set up in Arizona and California that were hundreds of miles from the border, stopping all the highway traffic. Of course this is where all those famous Checkpoint USA videos come in (https://www.youtube.com/user/CheckpointUSA https://www.youtube.com/user/CheckpointUSA). I can only imagine what would happen if they just started stopping everyone on the freeway asking for ID... And so it begins.
- cperciva 10y ago
  I can only imagine what would happen if they just started stopping everyone on the freeway asking for ID... Don't the police set up roadblocks which stop everybody if they're trying to apprehend a fugitive and they think said fugitive is driving in a particular direction?
  - cbanek 10y ago
    There are a few reasons why police will set up roadblocks, yes, like a manhunt, missing prisoner, or DUI checkpoint. The big difference is they don't ask for ID at these positions, and I've never personally seen a roadblock on a major interstate, usually it is smaller roads and closer to where they think the person might be. Of course roadblocks are only useful if you can set up blocks all around a perimeter. Also, those roadblocks are extremely temporary by nature, in terms of hours. Some of the border patrol checkpoints are basically permanent (a big sticking point in terms of the law). Now let's expand this instead of fugitive, you're looking for illegal immigrants on a list of people. Does that mean you can stop everyone, and scan their ID to try to find these people? Not to mention search the vehicle? In terms of the constitution, my right to free travel and the 4th amendment, I would hope that such a thing wouldn't happen, but it seems like that is what they are trying. For airports, things are a bit different, and you waive certain rights because of public safety and the risk of terrorism. But I can see something like that being moved down to travel by road as well.
    - code_duck 10y ago
      They definitely ask for ID at DUI roadblocks - license and registration, just like a traffic stop. They also will question passengers and if desired, ask you to go to 'secondary' for a search or K-9 inspection. I looked at the stats near San Bernardino while I was there for a time last year, and from what I recall they found more stolen vehicles, individuals with warrants and drugs than impaired drivers.
cperciva 10y ago
This has happened to me twice on Canadian flights; the second time I asked one of the police officers what was going on, and they said they were looking for someone whom the flight manifest said was on board the plane. I suppose they could have come onto the plane to pull someone off, but that would have delayed everybody far more than checking ID on the way off. I wouldn't want this to be a routine fishing expedition, but if there's someone specific they're looking for and they have a reason to think the person in question is on the plane, I really don't see any problem.
- morgante 10y ago
  Allowing violations of our rights "just in this case" is how they get stripped down to nothing. The government does not have the right to demand your ID at any time they please.
  - cperciva 10y ago
    I'm not saying "at any time they please". I'm saying "when they have probable cause to believe the person they're looking for is on the plane".
    - morgante 10y ago
      I don't think that's sufficient probable cause. They don't suspect that everyone on the plane is an illegal immigrant More importantly, they should plenty of less-invasive procedures. The airline should have a passenger manifest of everyone who actually flew, for one thing.
- endophage 10y ago
  Unfortunately their (ICE/CBP) identification of people is so poor that it appears to often be no more than a name match. My brother-in-law has a name that's very common in both Mexico and the US and as a result, he regularly gets stopped when flying so they can confirm he's not one of the people with that name who happens to have outstanding warrants.
alistproducer2 10y ago
This administration seems intent on creating problems within what have been relatively stable systems.
- Jimmie_Rustle 10y ago
  What is the problem being created? They were looking for a fugitive
  - Florin_Andrei 10y ago
    Which is cool, as long as they don't get in the habit of "looking for fugitives" 24/7.
  - x1798DE 10y ago
    Why would they check everyone's ID instead of just the people who looked like the person they were looking for? At least people who are obviously the wrong age and sex...
  - bediger4000 10y ago
    Sure, and Eric Garner, Michael Brown were resisting arrest, and Freddy Gray was just being transported.
hrodriguez 10y ago
Click bait title with a touch of fear-mongering from another MSM outlet. "as they searched for an undocumented immigrant who had received a deportation order to leave the United States." "The search was conducted at the request of Immigration and Customs Enforcement" Seems completely reasonable.
- geofft 10y ago
  Why? What makes it reasonable to search all passengers on a plane to find an undocumented immigrant, that wouldn't also make it reasonable to search all passengers on a bus, or all congregants at a church, or all pedestrians at a crosswalk, or similar? What happens if I don't have my citizenship papers with me? Is ICE going to take my word that I'm not the person they're looking for and I'm actually a citizen? Why should I, a natural-born US citizen, be obligated to carry my citizenship papers around with me in any of those situations just in case ICE decides to show up? I have certain rights as a US citizen, and one of those is that I expect to be able to travel domestically without carrying my papers and without ICE detaining me.
  - zaatar 10y ago
    That you're a natural-born citizen is completely irrelevant; naturalized citizens are no less entitled to the exact same rights less serving as POTUS. See the supreme court ruling from Luria v. United States, 231 U.S. 9 (1913). Link: https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/231/9/case.html https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/231/9/case.html
- WillyOnWheels 10y ago
  I take a different view. I would expect the airline to know the full name and age and travel history of every single person on the flight from SFO->NYC. Did they tell CBP that the person was on the flight? Did they tell CBP that the person may have been on the flight? Didn't they know for sure? Don't we have computers now?
marricks 10y ago
Since it's easy to be unclear of your legal rights and protections, can you ask officer if you're legally obligated to comply with their request, and if they're recorded lying can the agency be held accountable? That might be another way to try and have a legal push back, as most people, probably myself too, might not feel up to trying to stand their ground on their rights impromptu with no time to become aware of whatever specific rights will challenged ahead of time.
- hyperpape 10y ago
  My non-lawyerly understanding is that in theory, officers of the law have substantial protection as long as they can claim they were not willfully violating your rights. On top of that, in practice they have even more protections (http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4221000 http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4221000)
- morgante 10y ago
  You might be able to try, but that's a much flimsier case than them taking punitive actions against you for refusing to show ID.
- eli 10y ago
  Recording security operations at the airport may itself be illegal, depending on the state and local laws.
sova 10y ago
Oh good, I can't wait to see what awesome innovations rapid militarisation of our country will bring!
Mikeb85 10y ago
"Undocumented immigrant"? You mean illegal alien. Also, providing ID is pretty normal. Especially on flights. Even domestic ones. Or so I thought. Then again I live in communist Canada.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
ehasbrouck 10y ago
Analysis from the Identity Project (PapersPlease.org): "...In the case of Delta Flight 1583, we don’t know what would have happened if a passenger declined to answer questions, declined to show ID, or tried to walk past the CBP officers and leave the plane. Some of the passengers might perfectly legally have passed through TSA checkpoints and boarded the flight without having or showing any ID, as people do every day. It’s unclear whether a court would find that, in the circumstances depicted in this photo, a reasonable person would have felt free to leave without answering questions or showing ID documents. The Supreme Court has also ruled that law enforcement officers questioning and searching passengers on a common carrier are not required to tell you whether you have to comply with their “requests”, or to tell you whether you are free to leave. The only way to find out whether you are required to answer questions is to stand mute. The only way to find out if you are required to produce or hand over documents is to keep them out of sight and not to hand over or open your bags or put your hands in your pockets. The only way to find out if you are free to leave is to walk away. The only way to find out whether government agents will allow you to exercise your rights is to exercise your rights. Only then are you likely to be found to have standing to challenge any infringement of your rights. So far as we can tell, all the passengers on Delta Flight 1583 produced and handed over documents that the CBP officers found acceptable, and were then allowed to leave. So we will probably never know whether the courts would have upheld the legality of the CBP officers’ actions." More (including links to statute and regulations purporting to authorize CBP boarding of domestic flights): https://papersplease.org/wp/2017/02/24/border-search-and-id-demand-from-passengers-on-a-domestic-flight/ https://papersplease.org/wp/2017/02/24/border-search-and-id-...

49 points by WillyOnWheels 10y ago

For those of you unaware, it's illegal to be caught without your green card. That much is not new. http://immigrationroad.com/blog/do-i-have-to-carry-my-green-card-around/ http://immigrationroad.com/blog/do-i-have-to-carry-my-green-...

derefr 10y ago
But it's not illegal for a US citizen to be carrying no form of identification, which makes "you have no papers" kind of a flimsy argument: how do you know the person is not, in fact, a citizen? Especially on a domestic flight, where there was nothing forcing any of the US citizens on the flight to bring travel documents like a passport with them.
- masonic 10y ago
  But it's not illegal for a US citizen to be carrying no form of identification On a commercial flight? Of course it is. This is different from accosting a pedestrian on a street without probable cause. [EDIT: Note what the regulation actually says: "If your identity is confirmed, you will be allowed to enter the screening checkpoint." (That does NOT, in itself, include boarding a plane.) Continuing: "You may be subject to additional screening. You will not be allowed to fly if your identity cannot be confirmed, you chose to not provide proper identification or you decline to cooperate with the identity verification process." So, had there been passengers for which a knowing exception had been made, the investigators would have known that going in. So, it's wrong to say that "it's illegal" to be on a commercial flight in that case, but for the purpose of this specific search, any such granted variances would have had to be on record, and known to the investigators.
  - maxerickson 10y ago
    TSA say that they will allow people to fly without documents: https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification (they treat it as an exception, but it is right there on their website)
  - GavinMcG 10y ago
    That's just not true. I've gotten on planes without ID before, after losing my driver's license. I got patted down extra thoroughly, but there's no issue of legality.
    - outericky 10y ago
      This. It is very possible to fly without ID. Have done it several times due to lost wallet/id. Takes longer. And there is more verification. But def possible.
      - morgante 10y ago
        Indeed. And that's not an anachronism, I just did it 2 years ago when I forgot my license. Just had to show them a credit card.
        AckSyn 10y ago
        I did it last week when I accidentally shipped my wallet containing my drivers license and passport home before flying home. It's nothing more serious than waiting a little more before getting through the line.
    - dingaling 10y ago
      It's interesting that you can fly without ID ( airlines in the UK closed that hole years ago to prevent ticket resale ) but I'm confused why that led to additional pat-down scrutiny. Surely the thoroughness physical screening should be orthogonal to identity? Otherwise it suggests that someone who does have ID to fly receives less scrutiny, which is a security vulnerability. To invert: everyone boarding an aircraft should be physically screened to the same extent.
- zkms 10y ago
  also note that it's currently (idk how that will change with the clusterfuck that is REAL ID, though) legal and possible to board a domestic flight without any forms of ID. https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification
- danjoc 10y ago
  >how do you know the person is not, in fact, a citizen? By checking their ID? Don't you think it's a little hypocritical of you? You seem just fine with green card holders being subjected to something you yourself would not stand for. My spouse has a green card. I find the requirement rather onerous given the level of scrutiny required to get one. Edit: Oh yes. Let the down votes begin. How many DHS officials looked through your wedding photos? ID requirements are fine for "those" people.
  - derefr 10y ago
    Errr... you didn't parse the context of what I said, did you? They wouldn't have an ID to check. My point was that if you're not carrying any form of identification, there's no way for anyone to prove you're not a US citizen. And that that's a good thing, because the perspective of American law is that you need positive proof that someone is an illegal immigrant to arrest them, rather than just a lack of proof of them being a US citizen. Because—crucially—it's perfectly customary for US citizens to walk around without such proof, and so the law can't work any other way. This creates a loophole for those who lose, forget, or never had green cards: if you just avoid carrying any ID, you can, when questioned, say you're a US citizen who left their ID at home. It's then up to the other party to prove otherwise; until they do, they can't detain you, because you're presumably a US citizen without their ID and there is no crime in that. This didn't used to be a feasible thing to do, because you are required to carry some form of ID if you want to operate a motor vehicle, and the US is a big sprawl that requires most people to be operating motor vehicles at least some of the time. But as the US gradually builds up metropolitan areas with public transit systems, this becomes less of a concern; for many Americans, there's nothing they do on an average day that requires an ID, and they'd be fine without it. (Also, re: "something you yourself would not stand for"—I'm not an American myself. I just like contrived discussions of law.)

LyndsySimon 10y ago

Is there any evidence anyone refused? If not, then they can frame it as consensual and no one will have standing to challenge it.

maxerickson 10y ago
Hurray!

walrus01 10y ago

pick up that can

LyalinDotCom 10y ago

Would love to know the legal details behind this scenario and what rights people actually have to be stopped by various types of law enforcement, in such a simple case as just leaving a flight you were just legally on.

morgante 10y ago
Constitutionally, they don't have a leg to stand on. The police cannot demand your ID without probable cause. I wonder what would have happened if someone refused.
- leereeves 10y ago
  This really isn't unusual. I was once stopped and asked for my ID (and other questions) because someone had committed a robbery in the area. People are routinely stopped at checkpoints when crossing state lines, when police are searching for someone, and at "dragnets" for DUI and immigration. And yet, suddenly, the left-wing media cares? Could that have anything to do with their candidate (Hillary) having lost the election? They're going to exploit anything they can to make Trump look bad, just as the right-wing did when Obama was in office.
  - morgante 10y ago
    I agree it's not unusual and I doubt this has anything to do with Trump. That doesn't change the fact that it's unconstitutional to require ID. "Dragnets" are not a good thing. There's a reason people often use them as a synonym for invasive and authoritarian tactics.
    - leereeves 10y ago
      I'm just commenting on the media's sudden interest, which I think has everything to do with their opposition to Trump. I (and many people on both sides) have been opposed to dragnets (including DUI and immigration dragnets) for a long time. DAE remember when right wingers were mocked for those videos in which they simply responded "Am I being detained?"

cbanek 10y ago

This is incredibly disturbing. This reminds me of all the random border patrol checkpoints set up in Arizona and California that were hundreds of miles from the border, stopping all the highway traffic. Of course this is where all those famous Checkpoint USA videos come in (https://www.youtube.com/user/CheckpointUSA https://www.youtube.com/user/CheckpointUSA). I can only imagine what would happen if they just started stopping everyone on the freeway asking for ID... And so it begins.

cperciva 10y ago
I can only imagine what would happen if they just started stopping everyone on the freeway asking for ID... Don't the police set up roadblocks which stop everybody if they're trying to apprehend a fugitive and they think said fugitive is driving in a particular direction?
- cbanek 10y ago
  There are a few reasons why police will set up roadblocks, yes, like a manhunt, missing prisoner, or DUI checkpoint. The big difference is they don't ask for ID at these positions, and I've never personally seen a roadblock on a major interstate, usually it is smaller roads and closer to where they think the person might be. Of course roadblocks are only useful if you can set up blocks all around a perimeter. Also, those roadblocks are extremely temporary by nature, in terms of hours. Some of the border patrol checkpoints are basically permanent (a big sticking point in terms of the law). Now let's expand this instead of fugitive, you're looking for illegal immigrants on a list of people. Does that mean you can stop everyone, and scan their ID to try to find these people? Not to mention search the vehicle? In terms of the constitution, my right to free travel and the 4th amendment, I would hope that such a thing wouldn't happen, but it seems like that is what they are trying. For airports, things are a bit different, and you waive certain rights because of public safety and the risk of terrorism. But I can see something like that being moved down to travel by road as well.
  - code_duck 10y ago
    They definitely ask for ID at DUI roadblocks - license and registration, just like a traffic stop. They also will question passengers and if desired, ask you to go to 'secondary' for a search or K-9 inspection. I looked at the stats near San Bernardino while I was there for a time last year, and from what I recall they found more stolen vehicles, individuals with warrants and drugs than impaired drivers.

cperciva 10y ago

This has happened to me twice on Canadian flights; the second time I asked one of the police officers what was going on, and they said they were looking for someone whom the flight manifest said was on board the plane. I suppose they could have come onto the plane to pull someone off, but that would have delayed everybody far more than checking ID on the way off. I wouldn't want this to be a routine fishing expedition, but if there's someone specific they're looking for and they have a reason to think the person in question is on the plane, I really don't see any problem.

morgante 10y ago
Allowing violations of our rights "just in this case" is how they get stripped down to nothing. The government does not have the right to demand your ID at any time they please.
- cperciva 10y ago
  I'm not saying "at any time they please". I'm saying "when they have probable cause to believe the person they're looking for is on the plane".
  - morgante 10y ago
    I don't think that's sufficient probable cause. They don't suspect that everyone on the plane is an illegal immigrant More importantly, they should plenty of less-invasive procedures. The airline should have a passenger manifest of everyone who actually flew, for one thing.
endophage 10y ago
Unfortunately their (ICE/CBP) identification of people is so poor that it appears to often be no more than a name match. My brother-in-law has a name that's very common in both Mexico and the US and as a result, he regularly gets stopped when flying so they can confirm he's not one of the people with that name who happens to have outstanding warrants.

alistproducer2 10y ago

This administration seems intent on creating problems within what have been relatively stable systems.

Jimmie_Rustle 10y ago
What is the problem being created? They were looking for a fugitive
- Florin_Andrei 10y ago
  Which is cool, as long as they don't get in the habit of "looking for fugitives" 24/7.
- x1798DE 10y ago
  Why would they check everyone's ID instead of just the people who looked like the person they were looking for? At least people who are obviously the wrong age and sex...
- bediger4000 10y ago
  Sure, and Eric Garner, Michael Brown were resisting arrest, and Freddy Gray was just being transported.

hrodriguez 10y ago

Click bait title with a touch of fear-mongering from another MSM outlet. "as they searched for an undocumented immigrant who had received a deportation order to leave the United States." "The search was conducted at the request of Immigration and Customs Enforcement" Seems completely reasonable.

geofft 10y ago
Why? What makes it reasonable to search all passengers on a plane to find an undocumented immigrant, that wouldn't also make it reasonable to search all passengers on a bus, or all congregants at a church, or all pedestrians at a crosswalk, or similar? What happens if I don't have my citizenship papers with me? Is ICE going to take my word that I'm not the person they're looking for and I'm actually a citizen? Why should I, a natural-born US citizen, be obligated to carry my citizenship papers around with me in any of those situations just in case ICE decides to show up? I have certain rights as a US citizen, and one of those is that I expect to be able to travel domestically without carrying my papers and without ICE detaining me.
- zaatar 10y ago
  That you're a natural-born citizen is completely irrelevant; naturalized citizens are no less entitled to the exact same rights less serving as POTUS. See the supreme court ruling from Luria v. United States, 231 U.S. 9 (1913). Link: https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/231/9/case.html https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/231/9/case.html
WillyOnWheels 10y ago
I take a different view. I would expect the airline to know the full name and age and travel history of every single person on the flight from SFO->NYC. Did they tell CBP that the person was on the flight? Did they tell CBP that the person may have been on the flight? Didn't they know for sure? Don't we have computers now?

marricks 10y ago

Since it's easy to be unclear of your legal rights and protections, can you ask officer if you're legally obligated to comply with their request, and if they're recorded lying can the agency be held accountable? That might be another way to try and have a legal push back, as most people, probably myself too, might not feel up to trying to stand their ground on their rights impromptu with no time to become aware of whatever specific rights will challenged ahead of time.

hyperpape 10y ago
My non-lawyerly understanding is that in theory, officers of the law have substantial protection as long as they can claim they were not willfully violating your rights. On top of that, in practice they have even more protections (http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4221000 http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4221000)
morgante 10y ago
You might be able to try, but that's a much flimsier case than them taking punitive actions against you for refusing to show ID.
eli 10y ago
Recording security operations at the airport may itself be illegal, depending on the state and local laws.

sova 10y ago

Oh good, I can't wait to see what awesome innovations rapid militarisation of our country will bring!

Mikeb85 10y ago

"Undocumented immigrant"? You mean illegal alien. Also, providing ID is pretty normal. Especially on flights. Even domestic ones. Or so I thought. Then again I live in communist Canada.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

ehasbrouck 10y ago

Analysis from the Identity Project (PapersPlease.org): "...In the case of Delta Flight 1583, we don’t know what would have happened if a passenger declined to answer questions, declined to show ID, or tried to walk past the CBP officers and leave the plane. Some of the passengers might perfectly legally have passed through TSA checkpoints and boarded the flight without having or showing any ID, as people do every day. It’s unclear whether a court would find that, in the circumstances depicted in this photo, a reasonable person would have felt free to leave without answering questions or showing ID documents. The Supreme Court has also ruled that law enforcement officers questioning and searching passengers on a common carrier are not required to tell you whether you have to comply with their “requests”, or to tell you whether you are free to leave. The only way to find out whether you are required to answer questions is to stand mute. The only way to find out if you are required to produce or hand over documents is to keep them out of sight and not to hand over or open your bags or put your hands in your pockets. The only way to find out if you are free to leave is to walk away. The only way to find out whether government agents will allow you to exercise your rights is to exercise your rights. Only then are you likely to be found to have standing to challenge any infringement of your rights. So far as we can tell, all the passengers on Delta Flight 1583 produced and handed over documents that the CBP officers found acceptable, and were then allowed to leave. So we will probably never know whether the courts would have upheld the legality of the CBP officers’ actions." More (including links to statute and regulations purporting to authorize CBP boarding of domestic flights): https://papersplease.org/wp/2017/02/24/border-search-and-id-demand-from-passengers-on-a-domestic-flight/ https://papersplease.org/wp/2017/02/24/border-search-and-id-...