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>Do you believe there are any disparities in demographics between the general population and a given field (such as tech)? I don't have to believe it, if you l

>Do you believe there are any disparities in demographics between the general population and a given field (such as tech)? I don't have to believe it, if you look at any statistics on this subject, you'll see some pretty obvious and typical trends (not many male nurses, not many female coal miners, etc). >What demographic do you belong to? Won't you just discard my opinion if I'm not of a demographic that's "allowed" to have a valid opinion on this? The most I'll say is that if you guessed, you'd probably be wrong. >How do you think these disparities might affect society as a whole? I think the push to correct these disparities is very harmful to society as a whole, as people are pushed into fields they don't actually like to correct for statistics that don't even matter, and who displace and disadvantage people who did not have to be pushed into their field nor lured with preferential hiring. >If there are disparities, what, if anything, do you think should be done to lessen the disparity in demographics? I will answer that question with a question: Why does this disparity need to be corrected? Do all such disparities need to be corrected? Where is the push for gender diversity in offshore oil rigs and coal mines, or for elementary education and nursing? If some do, and some don't, how do you decide which disparities to be corrected, and which ones not to be? What do we get out of correcting these disparities? Many people, of a particular ideological demographic, believe gender disparities are solely attributed to social and cultural influences, and that women will have just as much interest in construction work and men will have just as much interest in nursing once you account for gender differences in socialization and upbringing and et cetera. I don't believe this has been proven. Without knowing that every demographic has equal interest and potential in every job, what's the value in making sure every demographic has equal membership in every field of employment?

grzm 10y ago
There's a lot of defensiveness in your response, which is understandable given how charged a lot of these conversations can get. I've intentionally phrased the questions to allow for disagreement on whether these topics should even be a concern. As for discarding your opinion, I wouldn't be asking for it if my intent was to discard it. The idea that someone's opinion is valid depending on their demographic is troublesome. I do think that one needs to be reflective and honestly question how their opinion is shaped by their particular circumstance. As for the rest, it looks like it boils down for you that any disparity that currently exists is fine. The questions you raise regarding how to decide which disparities should be corrected I think is important and should be addressed, though my impression is that you think because this question is difficult (or exists at all) means the entire endeavor is invalid or should be discarded. If that's not your intent, I'm honestly interested in hearing your thoughts on them.
- Oxitendwe 10y ago
  >There's a lot of defensiveness in your response, which is understandable given how charged a lot of these conversations can get. I've intentionally phrased the questions to allow for disagreement on whether these topics should even be a concern. You're right, and I appreciate your phrasing. However, I feel very strongly about this, because I feel these policies hurt everyone, from the people in the majority they directly disadvantage to the minority groups they are supposed to advance. >As for discarding your opinion, I wouldn't be asking for it if my intent was to discard it. Could you say the same of every other person likely to view this thread? The same ideology that leads people to inject identity politics into everything is also the one that leads people to discard opinions if they're not from the "right" people. Everyone who isn't a complete minority has absolutely no incentive to tell people what demographic they belong to. >As for the rest, it looks like it boils down for you that any disparity that currently exists is fine. I wouldn't say this is true, but part of my dismissive attitude comes from the linked article, which suggests that people should change their hiring practices to move closer to their ideal of a "diverse" company, where all demographics have equal representation. I don't believe this ideal has value, and I believe trying to attain it is discriminatory and harmful to society at large. That doesn't mean all disparities should not be corrected, just that their correction should not involve rigging zero-sum games such as job admittance or university acceptance in favor of their demographic. Instead I am in favor of solutions further down the line, where the actual problem exists, such as increased school funding and better teachers so that these people have a better chance of getting into college and succeeding once they get there.
  - grzm 10y ago
    I appreciate that you feel strongly about this: it's clear that a lot of people do. I encourage you to figure out if this is a conversation you actually want to have, or if you are content with only expressing your views. You've been very quick to assume that people are going to dismiss the validity of your views ("Could you say the same of every other person likely to view this thread?"), and are just as quick to dismiss those of others by assuming their intent ("those of a particular ideological demographic"). These are tough conversations to have. You have to be willing to put yourself out there and engage in a genuine manner to look for solutions people can agree upon. You're right that not everyone on HN (or elsewhere, for that matter) are going to be able to do that, but if everyone waits for everyone else to put their best foot forward, no progress is going to be made at all. You mention increased school funding and better teachers. How do propose doing this? In the US, there's increasing focus on decreasing funding in public schools. Coupled with school funding being closely associated with property taxes, those most disadvantaged are those with the least funding available.

grzm 10y ago

There's a lot of defensiveness in your response, which is understandable given how charged a lot of these conversations can get. I've intentionally phrased the questions to allow for disagreement on whether these topics should even be a concern. As for discarding your opinion, I wouldn't be asking for it if my intent was to discard it. The idea that someone's opinion is valid depending on their demographic is troublesome. I do think that one needs to be reflective and honestly question how their opinion is shaped by their particular circumstance. As for the rest, it looks like it boils down for you that any disparity that currently exists is fine. The questions you raise regarding how to decide which disparities should be corrected I think is important and should be addressed, though my impression is that you think because this question is difficult (or exists at all) means the entire endeavor is invalid or should be discarded. If that's not your intent, I'm honestly interested in hearing your thoughts on them.

Oxitendwe 10y ago
>There's a lot of defensiveness in your response, which is understandable given how charged a lot of these conversations can get. I've intentionally phrased the questions to allow for disagreement on whether these topics should even be a concern. You're right, and I appreciate your phrasing. However, I feel very strongly about this, because I feel these policies hurt everyone, from the people in the majority they directly disadvantage to the minority groups they are supposed to advance. >As for discarding your opinion, I wouldn't be asking for it if my intent was to discard it. Could you say the same of every other person likely to view this thread? The same ideology that leads people to inject identity politics into everything is also the one that leads people to discard opinions if they're not from the "right" people. Everyone who isn't a complete minority has absolutely no incentive to tell people what demographic they belong to. >As for the rest, it looks like it boils down for you that any disparity that currently exists is fine. I wouldn't say this is true, but part of my dismissive attitude comes from the linked article, which suggests that people should change their hiring practices to move closer to their ideal of a "diverse" company, where all demographics have equal representation. I don't believe this ideal has value, and I believe trying to attain it is discriminatory and harmful to society at large. That doesn't mean all disparities should not be corrected, just that their correction should not involve rigging zero-sum games such as job admittance or university acceptance in favor of their demographic. Instead I am in favor of solutions further down the line, where the actual problem exists, such as increased school funding and better teachers so that these people have a better chance of getting into college and succeeding once they get there.
- grzm 10y ago
  I appreciate that you feel strongly about this: it's clear that a lot of people do. I encourage you to figure out if this is a conversation you actually want to have, or if you are content with only expressing your views. You've been very quick to assume that people are going to dismiss the validity of your views ("Could you say the same of every other person likely to view this thread?"), and are just as quick to dismiss those of others by assuming their intent ("those of a particular ideological demographic"). These are tough conversations to have. You have to be willing to put yourself out there and engage in a genuine manner to look for solutions people can agree upon. You're right that not everyone on HN (or elsewhere, for that matter) are going to be able to do that, but if everyone waits for everyone else to put their best foot forward, no progress is going to be made at all. You mention increased school funding and better teachers. How do propose doing this? In the US, there's increasing focus on decreasing funding in public schools. Coupled with school funding being closely associated with property taxes, those most disadvantaged are those with the least funding available.