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> My experience with it is that once a disk-backed machine (as opposed to SSD) has started swapping, it's essentially unusable until you manually force all anon

> My experience with it is that once a disk-backed machine (as opposed to SSD) has started swapping, it's essentially unusable until you manually force all anonymous pages to be paged in by turning off swap ("sudo swapoff -a" on Linux) or reboot. That depends. If your workload exceeds the amount of available memory, you will start "thrashing" the disk and that can make a system un-responsive. If you happen to launch a large application, or start working with a big file, unused pages will be evicted to disk to make room and, after some slowdown, the system should become perfectly usable again. YMMV On OSX, I don't know a way, but I can't recall the last time I had to reboot due to RAM/swap issues, even when I was developing apps on a 4GB Macbook Air. I guess memory compression, which is enabled by default, helps here. Most OSX systems have very fast SSDs as well.

tluyben2 10y ago
On my 2015 MBP with 8GB & SSD, I am often stuck for 10-15 minutes unable to do anything while thrashing. And I am someone who has Activity Monitor handy. I do not have this on my much older and weaker Ubuntu X220s doing the same type of development. Not sure why that is.
- Yaggo 10y ago
  If it's 3rd party SSD, have you enabled TRIM? I had to do that for my old Mac Mini, made big difference. (2015 MBP of course has factory-installed SSD, but maybe this helps someone else.) http://osxdaily.com/2015/10/29/use-trimforce-trim-ssd-mac-os-x/ http://osxdaily.com/2015/10/29/use-trimforce-trim-ssd-mac-os...
  - tluyben2 10y ago
    It's all original Apple hardware.
- raarts 10y ago
  It can be Spotlight reindexing, or Time Machine creating a backup into /Volumes/MobileBackups (done once per hour). Especially taxing if you have lots of files on your disk.
  - nitrogen 10y ago
    It's kind of annoying that these processes aren't niced and ioniced (or the macos equivalent). Especially when typing a password.
- Spooky23 10y ago
  Look for hung mds (spotlight indexer) threads. They can get hung up and fail Un-gracefully with some files. I had a client whose app generate PDFs that would cause this to happen.
  - tluyben2 10y ago
    Memory (8GB) is just suddenly jumping to red, usually by some Safari tab (gmail etc) which suddenly jumps to 1GB. And that's it. No indexing or mds processes; just browser tabs which suddenly jump over a point and lock up everything because of memory use. It's like i'm back in the early '90s when I first touched a non Amiga and non SunOS system. And asked how people can work with that 'Windows/DOS stuff'. I am not sure why it misbehaves so much though...
bluedino 10y ago
Usually when people say 'swapping' they mean page faulting. It's nothing more than a slight annoyance on a single-user machine if you swap for 10 seconds, but on a busy server you are dead in the water.
- mtone 10y ago
  Take this with a grain of salt since this anectode is a few years old, before I upgraded to a SSD to host my swap, and this is on Windows. I'll always remember when I used to load a large piano instrument in a VST DAW on Windows 7, taking about 3-4GB out of 12GB of RAM, it played perfectly fine but if I left the application open, invariably on the next day I'd get a barrage of audio dropouts when pressing any new piano key. One trick was to put my arms on the entire keyboard a few times to wake the swap back up to memory. Another trick, which I ended up relying upon despite occasional low memory warnings, was to disable the pagefile entirely - that sure fixed the problem. I'm not sure how/if things have improved since with Windows 10 and SSDs, but I always felt there was something wrong with the algorithms, since even with GBs of memory free at all times, old memory content would tend to end up on disk, without any good reason I could see. I assume the OS used time to prioritize various caching/pre-fetching techniques over actual application data, and/or once paged, never preemptively loaded data back to RAM even if plenty of memory was available.
scottlamb 10y ago
> If you happen to launch a large application, or start working with a big file, unused pages will be evicted to disk to make room and, after some slowdown, the system should become perfectly usable again. YMMV What is an unused page? One that the foreground, memory-hungry application doesn't need? Okay, fine, but what happens when you switch back to some other application? My experience is that it needs the RAM that was paged out, and it doesn't get paged back in all at once. Every time you hit some 4 KiB of memory that happens to be paged out, you wait another 10 ms. I don't know how much beyond the 4 KiB gets paged in at the same time. Worst-case, there's no read-ahead at all. Let's say the application is using 1 GiB of RAM. Then this can happen 262,144 times, which means 44 minutes of waiting in small bursts as you're trying to use it, rather than the 10 seconds (at 100 MB/s) it'd take to read it all in one go. That's what I mean when I say the machine is unusable.
- XorNot 10y ago
  This is my experience too, and this thread has motivated me to "swapoff" all my desktop systems today I think. There's no situation in which swap usage for me has ever not lead to a reboot due to the system going unresponsive the moment it starts swapping.
  - aidenn0 10y ago
    I will posit that your swap is too big then; I have 16GB of ram and run with 1-2GB of swap. A runaway process hits the OOM in about 30s.
    - XorNot 10y ago
      To be fair, this is probably ZFS-on-Linux having a bad swap interaction. But I have found that once I get to 95% RAM use, I start hitting the swap fairly frequently and as a side-effect my desktop starts stuttering (usually happens if I kick off an 8-core code compile). The other culprit I suspect is too many potentially blocking processes Cinnamon's main thread, but I've never figured out a decent way to go after the problem.

tluyben2 10y ago

On my 2015 MBP with 8GB & SSD, I am often stuck for 10-15 minutes unable to do anything while thrashing. And I am someone who has Activity Monitor handy. I do not have this on my much older and weaker Ubuntu X220s doing the same type of development. Not sure why that is.

Yaggo 10y ago
If it's 3rd party SSD, have you enabled TRIM? I had to do that for my old Mac Mini, made big difference. (2015 MBP of course has factory-installed SSD, but maybe this helps someone else.) http://osxdaily.com/2015/10/29/use-trimforce-trim-ssd-mac-os-x/ http://osxdaily.com/2015/10/29/use-trimforce-trim-ssd-mac-os...
- tluyben2 10y ago
  It's all original Apple hardware.
raarts 10y ago
It can be Spotlight reindexing, or Time Machine creating a backup into /Volumes/MobileBackups (done once per hour). Especially taxing if you have lots of files on your disk.
- nitrogen 10y ago
  It's kind of annoying that these processes aren't niced and ioniced (or the macos equivalent). Especially when typing a password.
Spooky23 10y ago
Look for hung mds (spotlight indexer) threads. They can get hung up and fail Un-gracefully with some files. I had a client whose app generate PDFs that would cause this to happen.
- tluyben2 10y ago
  Memory (8GB) is just suddenly jumping to red, usually by some Safari tab (gmail etc) which suddenly jumps to 1GB. And that's it. No indexing or mds processes; just browser tabs which suddenly jump over a point and lock up everything because of memory use. It's like i'm back in the early '90s when I first touched a non Amiga and non SunOS system. And asked how people can work with that 'Windows/DOS stuff'. I am not sure why it misbehaves so much though...

bluedino 10y ago

Usually when people say 'swapping' they mean page faulting. It's nothing more than a slight annoyance on a single-user machine if you swap for 10 seconds, but on a busy server you are dead in the water.

mtone 10y ago
Take this with a grain of salt since this anectode is a few years old, before I upgraded to a SSD to host my swap, and this is on Windows. I'll always remember when I used to load a large piano instrument in a VST DAW on Windows 7, taking about 3-4GB out of 12GB of RAM, it played perfectly fine but if I left the application open, invariably on the next day I'd get a barrage of audio dropouts when pressing any new piano key. One trick was to put my arms on the entire keyboard a few times to wake the swap back up to memory. Another trick, which I ended up relying upon despite occasional low memory warnings, was to disable the pagefile entirely - that sure fixed the problem. I'm not sure how/if things have improved since with Windows 10 and SSDs, but I always felt there was something wrong with the algorithms, since even with GBs of memory free at all times, old memory content would tend to end up on disk, without any good reason I could see. I assume the OS used time to prioritize various caching/pre-fetching techniques over actual application data, and/or once paged, never preemptively loaded data back to RAM even if plenty of memory was available.

scottlamb 10y ago

> If you happen to launch a large application, or start working with a big file, unused pages will be evicted to disk to make room and, after some slowdown, the system should become perfectly usable again. YMMV What is an unused page? One that the foreground, memory-hungry application doesn't need? Okay, fine, but what happens when you switch back to some other application? My experience is that it needs the RAM that was paged out, and it doesn't get paged back in all at once. Every time you hit some 4 KiB of memory that happens to be paged out, you wait another 10 ms. I don't know how much beyond the 4 KiB gets paged in at the same time. Worst-case, there's no read-ahead at all. Let's say the application is using 1 GiB of RAM. Then this can happen 262,144 times, which means 44 minutes of waiting in small bursts as you're trying to use it, rather than the 10 seconds (at 100 MB/s) it'd take to read it all in one go. That's what I mean when I say the machine is unusable.

XorNot 10y ago
This is my experience too, and this thread has motivated me to "swapoff" all my desktop systems today I think. There's no situation in which swap usage for me has ever not lead to a reboot due to the system going unresponsive the moment it starts swapping.
- aidenn0 10y ago
  I will posit that your swap is too big then; I have 16GB of ram and run with 1-2GB of swap. A runaway process hits the OOM in about 30s.
  - XorNot 10y ago
    To be fair, this is probably ZFS-on-Linux having a bad swap interaction. But I have found that once I get to 95% RAM use, I start hitting the swap fairly frequently and as a side-effect my desktop starts stuttering (usually happens if I kick off an 8-core code compile). The other culprit I suspect is too many potentially blocking processes Cinnamon's main thread, but I've never figured out a decent way to go after the problem.