5 ms·

Do you believe there are any disparities in demographics between the general population and a given field (such as tech)? What demographic do you belong to? How

by grzm 10y ago

Do you believe there are any disparities in demographics between the general population and a given field (such as tech)? What demographic do you belong to? How do you think these disparities might affect society as a whole? If there are disparities, what, if anything, do you think should be done to lessen the disparity in demographics? Edit to add: If you choose to reply, please include attempts at answering all of the questions. Note there's nothing in this comment that assumes that hiring is the appropriate (or only) place something (if anything) should be done. It's easy to dismiss this as only "yes, there are disparities, but it shouldn't be fixed here", or "equal opportunity". That's not the end of the conversation. What does a better solution look like?

dongslol 10y ago
Certainly, but why necessarily at the hiring level? Why is citing the pipeline problem inherently lazy?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
teacup50 10y ago
> If there are disparities, what, if anything, do you think should be done to lessen the disparity in demographics? Target inequality of opportunity, and do not assume that differences in outcome are prima facie evidence of differences in opportunity. In other words, the pipeline is the place to solve this.
- grzm 10y ago
  What does that look like in implementation? How do you ensure and measure its effectiveness? What rates of improvement should be acceptable?
  - edblarney 10y ago
    I'd suggest that a starting point could be to make sure that those hired roughly reflect the diversity of the talent pool being hired from. If they 'match' - then it's a roughly good indicator that the hiring process 'is fair'. As far as I know - this is generally true: the ratio of female engs. in the valley is roughly commensurate with the ratio of females graduating from Comp Sci. Which is actually positive news. Now - that's nowhere near the whole story, but at least it's a crude basic metric.
    - grzm 10y ago
      I tend to agree with you on the starting point and that it's a rough indicator. that's nowhere near the whole story I'm glad you acknowledge this. It's a story that tends to get abandoned after looking at the types of metrics you describe. I don't think that's what you're doing here, by the way. Just the fact you bring it up makes it clear you don't.
      - edblarney 10y ago
        Thanks. But I often feel that that core metric is way too often overlooked by those lamenting injustice. The fact that 'the first rough metric' is pretty decent, I think speaks to the general fairness and goodwill in the tech industry. I've worked in tech my whole life - and without a doubt the people are pretty good. It can be a little guy-ish sometimes, and there are some bad-actors/companies, but I reject the idea that Tech is bad for women. Google and Facebook are probably 95% Obama voters, and progressive on almost every issue. To scream bigotry among this group is just too rich. So yes - the story does not end there, and there are clearly more obvious problems as you move up in management - but I also don't see an entire industry that's in some kind of trauma. Interesting tidbit: a survey of tech workers shows that men point primarily to the 'funnel problem' whereas women point to the 'lack of role models'. Which I thought was telling, and hints at an opportunity for improvement.
        grzm 10y ago
        I'm a bit taken aback by your comment here. I was encouraged by the lack of partisanship that began our exchange, as that so often does nothing but further polarize discussions. There are indications that you're looking for a more nuanced discussion, but phrases like "those lamenting injustice" and "to scream bigotry among this group is just too rich" makes it harder, rather than easier, for those that don't already agree with you to be willing to enter a discussion: it takes extra effort and good faith to attempt to engage in substantive discussion on contentious issues (rather than fall into the echo chamber everyone decries). a survey of tech workers shows that men point primarily to the 'funnel problem' whereas women point to the 'lack of role models'. Interesting. Do you have a reference to this survey at hand? Which I thought was telling, and hints at an opportunity for improvement. I'm not sure if I'm particularly dense (though I don't dispute this might be the case), but I think people generally assume that their intent in statements like this are much clearer than what is actually the case. I have a hard time knowing how to interpret what you mean, or what opportunity you see. Is it that you think there should be more role models for women? That the lack of role models for women indicates that there just aren't that many women in tech and that's because women aren't generally interested in tech so there really isn't a problem? That there's a mismatch between how men and women perceive the problem that needs to be addressed? If that's the case, do you think one perception is more accurate than the other? My comment to which you initially responded asked for specifics on implementation and measurement on addressing disparities in tech. I'm still interested in hearing for details rather than generalities.
mrweasel 10y ago
>Do you believe there are any disparities in demographics between the general population and a given field (such as tech)? We see this EVERYWHERE, but we only care about a very very small subset of fields, such as tech and upper management. As long as no one is being discriminated, then I really don't care about the demographics in a field. People should be able to work in what ever field they're qualified for but I don't see the need to take speciel actions to get more black women into the programming for example.
- grzm 10y ago
  How do you determine whether or not discrimination is partly responsible for the disparity?
  - mrweasel 10y ago
    I don't know, but I honestly don't see companies refusing to hire people on the basis of sex or gender, because it doesn't make finansiel sense.
    - grzm 10y ago
      I think I understand what you mean, but I find it problematic. Do I understand you to mean unless a company refuses to hire based on sex/gender across the board, there's no discrimination?
      - mrweasel 10y ago
        Well yes, of cause there could be issues with the people doing the hiring discriminating, due to personal opinions. In the case from the article, with Facebook only hiring one black women, it's not really relevant, when we don't know how many black women applicants they had. Ignoring everything else they should have hired 30 black women, assuming California demographics. Honestly I think it's more to do with women picking other careers and more black people being poor and not having the resource to acquire the skills Facebook seek (which of cause it a problem in it self).
Oxitendwe 10y ago
>Do you believe there are any disparities in demographics between the general population and a given field (such as tech)? I don't have to believe it, if you look at any statistics on this subject, you'll see some pretty obvious and typical trends (not many male nurses, not many female coal miners, etc). >What demographic do you belong to? Won't you just discard my opinion if I'm not of a demographic that's "allowed" to have a valid opinion on this? The most I'll say is that if you guessed, you'd probably be wrong. >How do you think these disparities might affect society as a whole? I think the push to correct these disparities is very harmful to society as a whole, as people are pushed into fields they don't actually like to correct for statistics that don't even matter, and who displace and disadvantage people who did not have to be pushed into their field nor lured with preferential hiring. >If there are disparities, what, if anything, do you think should be done to lessen the disparity in demographics? I will answer that question with a question: Why does this disparity need to be corrected? Do all such disparities need to be corrected? Where is the push for gender diversity in offshore oil rigs and coal mines, or for elementary education and nursing? If some do, and some don't, how do you decide which disparities to be corrected, and which ones not to be? What do we get out of correcting these disparities? Many people, of a particular ideological demographic, believe gender disparities are solely attributed to social and cultural influences, and that women will have just as much interest in construction work and men will have just as much interest in nursing once you account for gender differences in socialization and upbringing and et cetera. I don't believe this has been proven. Without knowing that every demographic has equal interest and potential in every job, what's the value in making sure every demographic has equal membership in every field of employment?
- grzm 10y ago
  There's a lot of defensiveness in your response, which is understandable given how charged a lot of these conversations can get. I've intentionally phrased the questions to allow for disagreement on whether these topics should even be a concern. As for discarding your opinion, I wouldn't be asking for it if my intent was to discard it. The idea that someone's opinion is valid depending on their demographic is troublesome. I do think that one needs to be reflective and honestly question how their opinion is shaped by their particular circumstance. As for the rest, it looks like it boils down for you that any disparity that currently exists is fine. The questions you raise regarding how to decide which disparities should be corrected I think is important and should be addressed, though my impression is that you think because this question is difficult (or exists at all) means the entire endeavor is invalid or should be discarded. If that's not your intent, I'm honestly interested in hearing your thoughts on them.

by grzm 10y ago

dongslol 10y ago

Certainly, but why necessarily at the hiring level? Why is citing the pipeline problem inherently lazy?

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

teacup50 10y ago

> If there are disparities, what, if anything, do you think should be done to lessen the disparity in demographics? Target inequality of opportunity, and do not assume that differences in outcome are prima facie evidence of differences in opportunity. In other words, the pipeline is the place to solve this.

grzm 10y ago
What does that look like in implementation? How do you ensure and measure its effectiveness? What rates of improvement should be acceptable?
- edblarney 10y ago
  I'd suggest that a starting point could be to make sure that those hired roughly reflect the diversity of the talent pool being hired from. If they 'match' - then it's a roughly good indicator that the hiring process 'is fair'. As far as I know - this is generally true: the ratio of female engs. in the valley is roughly commensurate with the ratio of females graduating from Comp Sci. Which is actually positive news. Now - that's nowhere near the whole story, but at least it's a crude basic metric.
  - grzm 10y ago
    I tend to agree with you on the starting point and that it's a rough indicator. that's nowhere near the whole story I'm glad you acknowledge this. It's a story that tends to get abandoned after looking at the types of metrics you describe. I don't think that's what you're doing here, by the way. Just the fact you bring it up makes it clear you don't.
    - edblarney 10y ago
      Thanks. But I often feel that that core metric is way too often overlooked by those lamenting injustice. The fact that 'the first rough metric' is pretty decent, I think speaks to the general fairness and goodwill in the tech industry. I've worked in tech my whole life - and without a doubt the people are pretty good. It can be a little guy-ish sometimes, and there are some bad-actors/companies, but I reject the idea that Tech is bad for women. Google and Facebook are probably 95% Obama voters, and progressive on almost every issue. To scream bigotry among this group is just too rich. So yes - the story does not end there, and there are clearly more obvious problems as you move up in management - but I also don't see an entire industry that's in some kind of trauma. Interesting tidbit: a survey of tech workers shows that men point primarily to the 'funnel problem' whereas women point to the 'lack of role models'. Which I thought was telling, and hints at an opportunity for improvement.
      - grzm 10y ago
        I'm a bit taken aback by your comment here. I was encouraged by the lack of partisanship that began our exchange, as that so often does nothing but further polarize discussions. There are indications that you're looking for a more nuanced discussion, but phrases like "those lamenting injustice" and "to scream bigotry among this group is just too rich" makes it harder, rather than easier, for those that don't already agree with you to be willing to enter a discussion: it takes extra effort and good faith to attempt to engage in substantive discussion on contentious issues (rather than fall into the echo chamber everyone decries). a survey of tech workers shows that men point primarily to the 'funnel problem' whereas women point to the 'lack of role models'. Interesting. Do you have a reference to this survey at hand? Which I thought was telling, and hints at an opportunity for improvement. I'm not sure if I'm particularly dense (though I don't dispute this might be the case), but I think people generally assume that their intent in statements like this are much clearer than what is actually the case. I have a hard time knowing how to interpret what you mean, or what opportunity you see. Is it that you think there should be more role models for women? That the lack of role models for women indicates that there just aren't that many women in tech and that's because women aren't generally interested in tech so there really isn't a problem? That there's a mismatch between how men and women perceive the problem that needs to be addressed? If that's the case, do you think one perception is more accurate than the other? My comment to which you initially responded asked for specifics on implementation and measurement on addressing disparities in tech. I'm still interested in hearing for details rather than generalities.

mrweasel 10y ago

>Do you believe there are any disparities in demographics between the general population and a given field (such as tech)? We see this EVERYWHERE, but we only care about a very very small subset of fields, such as tech and upper management. As long as no one is being discriminated, then I really don't care about the demographics in a field. People should be able to work in what ever field they're qualified for but I don't see the need to take speciel actions to get more black women into the programming for example.

grzm 10y ago
How do you determine whether or not discrimination is partly responsible for the disparity?
- mrweasel 10y ago
  I don't know, but I honestly don't see companies refusing to hire people on the basis of sex or gender, because it doesn't make finansiel sense.
  - grzm 10y ago
    I think I understand what you mean, but I find it problematic. Do I understand you to mean unless a company refuses to hire based on sex/gender across the board, there's no discrimination?
    - mrweasel 10y ago
      Well yes, of cause there could be issues with the people doing the hiring discriminating, due to personal opinions. In the case from the article, with Facebook only hiring one black women, it's not really relevant, when we don't know how many black women applicants they had. Ignoring everything else they should have hired 30 black women, assuming California demographics. Honestly I think it's more to do with women picking other careers and more black people being poor and not having the resource to acquire the skills Facebook seek (which of cause it a problem in it self).

Oxitendwe 10y ago

>Do you believe there are any disparities in demographics between the general population and a given field (such as tech)? I don't have to believe it, if you look at any statistics on this subject, you'll see some pretty obvious and typical trends (not many male nurses, not many female coal miners, etc). >What demographic do you belong to? Won't you just discard my opinion if I'm not of a demographic that's "allowed" to have a valid opinion on this? The most I'll say is that if you guessed, you'd probably be wrong. >How do you think these disparities might affect society as a whole? I think the push to correct these disparities is very harmful to society as a whole, as people are pushed into fields they don't actually like to correct for statistics that don't even matter, and who displace and disadvantage people who did not have to be pushed into their field nor lured with preferential hiring. >If there are disparities, what, if anything, do you think should be done to lessen the disparity in demographics? I will answer that question with a question: Why does this disparity need to be corrected? Do all such disparities need to be corrected? Where is the push for gender diversity in offshore oil rigs and coal mines, or for elementary education and nursing? If some do, and some don't, how do you decide which disparities to be corrected, and which ones not to be? What do we get out of correcting these disparities? Many people, of a particular ideological demographic, believe gender disparities are solely attributed to social and cultural influences, and that women will have just as much interest in construction work and men will have just as much interest in nursing once you account for gender differences in socialization and upbringing and et cetera. I don't believe this has been proven. Without knowing that every demographic has equal interest and potential in every job, what's the value in making sure every demographic has equal membership in every field of employment?

grzm 10y ago
There's a lot of defensiveness in your response, which is understandable given how charged a lot of these conversations can get. I've intentionally phrased the questions to allow for disagreement on whether these topics should even be a concern. As for discarding your opinion, I wouldn't be asking for it if my intent was to discard it. The idea that someone's opinion is valid depending on their demographic is troublesome. I do think that one needs to be reflective and honestly question how their opinion is shaped by their particular circumstance. As for the rest, it looks like it boils down for you that any disparity that currently exists is fine. The questions you raise regarding how to decide which disparities should be corrected I think is important and should be addressed, though my impression is that you think because this question is difficult (or exists at all) means the entire endeavor is invalid or should be discarded. If that's not your intent, I'm honestly interested in hearing your thoughts on them.