5 ms·

If you all are interested in the 'deregulated' energy markets in the US, you may want to check out PJM. Via PJM (and similar regional transmission organizations

by afpx 10y ago

If you all are interested in the 'deregulated' energy markets in the US, you may want to check out PJM. Via PJM (and similar regional transmission organizations), you can trade energy and even hook in your own generators and storage. Interestingly, renewables still comprise a tiny fraction of generation. I'm not sure if this is because of regulatory requirements, lack of reliable storage, or because of cost (nuclear and fossils are pretty cheap and reliable producers). Generally, in the US, distribution companies (i.e. electric utilities) purchase energy from the transmission companies. Many don't generate electricity themselves. Actually, most distribution companies are co-ops. There are still regulation via FERC, and they stay active because of high-impact capacity transmission failures in the past. But, it's all cool stuff. And, for those interested in machine learning, you can download a lot (or all) of the data and make a lot of money (I used to work in a pseudo-quant like capacity in that space). http://www.pjm.com/markets-and-operations.aspx http://www.pjm.com/markets-and-operations.aspx https://learn.pjm.com/three-priorities/buying-and-selling-energy/capacity-markets.aspx https://learn.pjm.com/three-priorities/buying-and-selling-en... http://pjm.com/markets-and-operations/energy/real-time/historical-bid-data/unit-bid.aspx http://pjm.com/markets-and-operations/energy/real-time/histo...

spangry 10y ago
That sounds very cool. I noticed a while ago that there are a lot of python libraries specifically for electrical grid simulation. Now I know why :) It's quite fortunate your electricity markets aren't vertically integrated monopolies (and the more monopolistic part i.e. transmission, is run by co-ops). Over here in Oz, on the other hand, our dickhead politicians are trying their hardest to sell off anything that isn't nailed down.
potluckyears 10y ago
Distribution companies don't purchase energy from transmission companies. You were probably thinking of Regional Transmission Organizations (RTOs), which are not the same thing as transmission companies. That said, it's not accurate to say that distribution companies purchase energy from RTOs either. RTOs (and ISOs, which are similar) are non-profit organizations that ensure transmission grid reliability and fairness by operating markets in which generators and distribution companies bid or buy energy [1]. The market mechanisms have been designed to also incorporates network balancing and congestion control. RTOs/ISOs are the benevolent, omniscient regional gods in charge of coordinating dispatch for the purposes of ensuring transmission grid reliability. They facilitate sales, they don't sell directly. Transmission companies, on the other hand, are for-profit organizations that build and maintain transmission lines. Their profits are constrained by regulation to be a certain percent return on equity [2], and they need to get permission from the RTO/ISO that monitors their region before making any operational changes to their transmission lines. One more difference is in their scale. There are only ten RTOs/ISOs in North America, and they tend to cover very large regions of the continent. There are many transmission companies, and they tend to cover smaller regions. For example, where I live in Southeast Michigan, the RTO/ISO is the Midcontinent Independent System Operator (MISO), and the transmission company is ITC [3], a spin-off from DTE Energy after deregulation forced DTE to pick two from their generation, transmission, and distribution capabilities (they kept generation and distribution, because post-deregulation that's where the money is). However, MISO's entire coverage area includes 52 transmission companies [4]. Basically, under deregulated energy markets transmission is treated as a public utility and the transmission grid is treated as common infrastructure. The grid is operated by non-profits and private companies who are required to be financially independent from generation and distribution interests. That's why the notion that distribution companies buy energy from transmission companies gives the wrong impression of how the system works, though I can see where the confusion could come from. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_transmission_organization_(North_America) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_transmission_organiza... [2] http://archive.jsonline.com/business/lower-profit-recommended-for-atc-other-midwest-power-line-utilities-b99759525z1-386317671.html http://archive.jsonline.com/business/lower-profit-recommende... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITC_Transmission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITC_Transmission [4] https://www.misoenergy.org/StakeholderCenter/Members/Pages/MembershipList.aspx https://www.misoenergy.org/StakeholderCenter/Members/Pages/M...
- afpx 10y ago
  Thanks for the clarification. Great info!! (And, even more happy to be able to pull an expert lurker into the fray).
imgabe 10y ago
How do you "make a lot of money" in this? Is there some publicly available market that anyone can trade in?
- shitgoose 10y ago
  liquidity is not inspiring: http://futures.tradingcharts.com/marketquotes/JM.html#footerclose http://futures.tradingcharts.com/marketquotes/JM.html#footer...
- afpx 10y ago
  Store energy when it's cheap. Sell it when it's not. You could do it on the market and make money (I know of a couple companies that do this). But, the technology is applicable to other areas, as well.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

by afpx 10y ago

spangry 10y ago

That sounds very cool. I noticed a while ago that there are a lot of python libraries specifically for electrical grid simulation. Now I know why :) It's quite fortunate your electricity markets aren't vertically integrated monopolies (and the more monopolistic part i.e. transmission, is run by co-ops). Over here in Oz, on the other hand, our dickhead politicians are trying their hardest to sell off anything that isn't nailed down.

potluckyears 10y ago

Distribution companies don't purchase energy from transmission companies. You were probably thinking of Regional Transmission Organizations (RTOs), which are not the same thing as transmission companies. That said, it's not accurate to say that distribution companies purchase energy from RTOs either. RTOs (and ISOs, which are similar) are non-profit organizations that ensure transmission grid reliability and fairness by operating markets in which generators and distribution companies bid or buy energy [1]. The market mechanisms have been designed to also incorporates network balancing and congestion control. RTOs/ISOs are the benevolent, omniscient regional gods in charge of coordinating dispatch for the purposes of ensuring transmission grid reliability. They facilitate sales, they don't sell directly. Transmission companies, on the other hand, are for-profit organizations that build and maintain transmission lines. Their profits are constrained by regulation to be a certain percent return on equity [2], and they need to get permission from the RTO/ISO that monitors their region before making any operational changes to their transmission lines. One more difference is in their scale. There are only ten RTOs/ISOs in North America, and they tend to cover very large regions of the continent. There are many transmission companies, and they tend to cover smaller regions. For example, where I live in Southeast Michigan, the RTO/ISO is the Midcontinent Independent System Operator (MISO), and the transmission company is ITC [3], a spin-off from DTE Energy after deregulation forced DTE to pick two from their generation, transmission, and distribution capabilities (they kept generation and distribution, because post-deregulation that's where the money is). However, MISO's entire coverage area includes 52 transmission companies [4]. Basically, under deregulated energy markets transmission is treated as a public utility and the transmission grid is treated as common infrastructure. The grid is operated by non-profits and private companies who are required to be financially independent from generation and distribution interests. That's why the notion that distribution companies buy energy from transmission companies gives the wrong impression of how the system works, though I can see where the confusion could come from. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_transmission_organization_(North_America) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_transmission_organiza... [2] http://archive.jsonline.com/business/lower-profit-recommended-for-atc-other-midwest-power-line-utilities-b99759525z1-386317671.html http://archive.jsonline.com/business/lower-profit-recommende... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITC_Transmission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITC_Transmission [4] https://www.misoenergy.org/StakeholderCenter/Members/Pages/MembershipList.aspx https://www.misoenergy.org/StakeholderCenter/Members/Pages/M...

afpx 10y ago
Thanks for the clarification. Great info!! (And, even more happy to be able to pull an expert lurker into the fray).

imgabe 10y ago

How do you "make a lot of money" in this? Is there some publicly available market that anyone can trade in?

shitgoose 10y ago
liquidity is not inspiring: http://futures.tradingcharts.com/marketquotes/JM.html#footerclose http://futures.tradingcharts.com/marketquotes/JM.html#footer...
afpx 10y ago
Store energy when it's cheap. Sell it when it's not. You could do it on the market and make money (I know of a couple companies that do this). But, the technology is applicable to other areas, as well.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]