4 ms·

The PDF example given is somewhat ridiculous. "For example, by crafting the two colliding PDF files as two rental agreements with different rent, it is possibl

by Twirrim 10y ago

The PDF example given is somewhat ridiculous. "For example, by crafting the two colliding PDF files as two rental agreements with different rent, it is possible to trick someone to create a valid signature for a high-rent contract by having him or her sign a low-rent contract. " Talk about ridiculous scenarios only people living in a tech bubble could come up with. How many landlords do you imagine know what sha-1 checksums even are, let alone would try and use it as proof the evil version of the rental agreement is incorrect? "I would have gotten away with it, if it wasn't for you meddling kids and your fancy SHA-256 checksums!"

udev 10y ago
This is not as far fetched as you think. In UK, rental contracts are often digitally signed by the renter and landlord. I am sure in finance world many other types of contracts are signed digitally, also under the assumption that both parties sign the same thing.
- pornel 10y ago
  The "signing" usually doesn't involve any cryptography. You just express your agreement, which can be as trivial as typing your initials in a box. It's purely a legal, not technical thing, so if you cleverly forge the document using collisions, you'll be shouting "but the SHA-1 matched!" from behind the bars.
  - pfg 10y ago
    The legal thing does make reference to the technical thing in Europe[1] (and probably elsewhere too), by making digital signatures (which use crypto) legally binding. The question is more how courts would rule in a case where a colliding document is signed. That would probably depend on whether you can prove which of the two parties authored the colliding document (since that's a requirement for this particular attack). (Note: I don't know whether this attack is practical for qualified electronic signatures as used by EU countries.) [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualified_electronic_signature https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualified_electronic_signature
- Twirrim 10y ago
  There's a difference between digital signatures and sha-1 checksums of the files, which is what they seem to have been demonstrating. Mysteriously the text I quoted has now vanished from the original blog post.
pfg 10y ago
Presumably they're talking about digital signatures. I don't know how common that is in the U.S., but it's used quite a bit in many European countries as a means to sign contracts and such. (I also don't know enough about the implementation details to say whether a colliding pdf file would be sufficient to trick these systems, but let's assume so for the sake of this argument.)
mike_hearn 10y ago
Obviously the landlord doesn't know or care what SHA-1 is, but he may care if his Adobe Reader says "This file was signed by the Department of Housing" at the top of the screen when he opens the PDF. As Reader fully supports signed PDFs and they do get used, believe it or not, this attack is not theoretical.

by Twirrim 10y ago

udev 10y ago

This is not as far fetched as you think. In UK, rental contracts are often digitally signed by the renter and landlord. I am sure in finance world many other types of contracts are signed digitally, also under the assumption that both parties sign the same thing.

pornel 10y ago
The "signing" usually doesn't involve any cryptography. You just express your agreement, which can be as trivial as typing your initials in a box. It's purely a legal, not technical thing, so if you cleverly forge the document using collisions, you'll be shouting "but the SHA-1 matched!" from behind the bars.
- pfg 10y ago
  The legal thing does make reference to the technical thing in Europe[1] (and probably elsewhere too), by making digital signatures (which use crypto) legally binding. The question is more how courts would rule in a case where a colliding document is signed. That would probably depend on whether you can prove which of the two parties authored the colliding document (since that's a requirement for this particular attack). (Note: I don't know whether this attack is practical for qualified electronic signatures as used by EU countries.) [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualified_electronic_signature https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualified_electronic_signature
Twirrim 10y ago
There's a difference between digital signatures and sha-1 checksums of the files, which is what they seem to have been demonstrating. Mysteriously the text I quoted has now vanished from the original blog post.

pfg 10y ago

Presumably they're talking about digital signatures. I don't know how common that is in the U.S., but it's used quite a bit in many European countries as a means to sign contracts and such. (I also don't know enough about the implementation details to say whether a colliding pdf file would be sufficient to trick these systems, but let's assume so for the sake of this argument.)

mike_hearn 10y ago

Obviously the landlord doesn't know or care what SHA-1 is, but he may care if his Adobe Reader says "This file was signed by the Department of Housing" at the top of the screen when he opens the PDF. As Reader fully supports signed PDFs and they do get used, believe it or not, this attack is not theoretical.