5 ms·

I don't agree that it's innocent. Competitors in marathons (the ones that have a chance of winning especially) have put a lot of time, energy, effort, and pain

by PKop 10y ago

I don't agree that it's innocent. Competitors in marathons (the ones that have a chance of winning especially) have put a lot of time, energy, effort, and pain into training to be successful. To have their rewards for that effort and commitment stolen by someone who didn't earn it is not fair and should be scrutinized and called out. To call this "trivial" seems like maybe you have no interest or experience with marathons? It might be trivial to you, but substitute marathons for some challenging endeavor in your life. If your success was stolen by someone who cheated, you wouldn't think it was trivial either. Certainly mass internet lynch mobs are a bad thing. But what this site does is necessary. There are many instances this kind of behavior documented on sites like this. Some of these cheaters are obsessive and do it over and over again. It is very unfair to other competitors (even those who have no chance of being winners...), taking credit for the commitment to something that you don't have. Maybe this kind of thing bothers me more because I've seen it with people who pretend to have military service ("stolen-valor"). It's just frustrating seeing people blatantly pretend to have done something difficult just to get the accolades. Anyways, I agree that these are self-inflicted wounds for sure.

runnr_az 10y ago
A little surprised to see this on the front page of HN, but I don't think we can deny that running is probably the nerdiest of sports. Anyway, that's nice that she owned up to it. Most of the cheaters don't. As a guy who's no doubt proved my running bonafides -- 3:06 marathon pr + there's a picture of me on the Western States 100 wikipedia page -- I always wonder why people get so angry about this kind of thing. I mean, sure, it's not cool to cheat, but this ain't the Olympics. Who gives a shit? Nothing is getting "stolen," especially not if you weren't in the top 10 or whatever.
- brianwawok 10y ago
  Cheating and doping both make me very angry as a casual athlete. I don't let it ruin my day, but it annoys me. Like come on, we are training 10h a week to go pay money to run a race and get a $1 medal. Let's kinda sorta keep it fair?
  - runnr_az 10y ago
    Obviously, I'm not gonna defend those behaviors. It's kind of a cliche, but they're really only cheating themselves. As for the rest of us, who are we really racing against? Sure, there are the handful of jerks who you battle it out with on the local scene... and if one of those guys were to cheat, you're right, that would feel personal and that would piss me off. But if some other random runner cut the course? Aren't we pretty much all just racing ourselves, seeing how far and fast we can push our bodies?
    - brianwawok 10y ago
      Yes and that is how I stay sane. However I really like to see how I rank.. like "Last year I ran in the 50th percentile, this year I ran in the 90th". 1 cheater, meh. 100 cheaters? Meh messed up my math ;)
  - orasis 10y ago
    That's an interesting perspective. I train Brazilian Jiu Jitsu with a bunch of guys that are on steroids and it doesn't bother me a bit. In my mind I just handicap myself vs their strength advantage so I'm happy with my relative performance.
    - brianwawok 10y ago
      What if one of them hurt you seriously, say causes paralysis? Would that be OK, because of course it could have happened anyway?
      - orasis 10y ago
        Heh. Actually I have a neck injury from a UFC fighter that was busted for doping. I don't blame him. He was just trying to keep his kids clothed and fed.
- masterponomo 10y ago
  I'm a casual runner, but I am engaged in a secret athletic struggle against my nemesis, a guy in my age group (55-59) who routinely finishes about 5 minutes ahead of me in local 5K races. It's a secret struggle because I'm not on even on his radar...but HE is on MINE. Believe me, if someone cheated and put yet another spot in the rankings between me and Nemesis, he would be stealing something important from me.
  - runnr_az 10y ago
    Haha. Yeah... I totally hear ya. That's fair. It's important to have a Nemesis. Go get him!
- justin66 10y ago
  > I mean, sure, it's not cool to cheat, but this ain't the Olympics. Who gives a shit? People who value fair play and personal honor more highly than you do. (well, you asked) > Nothing is getting "stolen," Those whose rankings are affected by the cheater have had something taken from them.
  - runnr_az 10y ago
    "God dammit! Don't you know who I am? I finished 355th at the North Face 50 Mile National Championships!" I mean... on some level, I get you. On another, though, I can assure you that no one cares about your marathon time or finishing place, unless you're at an elite level.
    - koreyb 10y ago
      This was a weak field local race with no prize money. She cheated out the top 3 female runners for bragging rights, that's really it. In a better stacked race her time would have been much further down in the AG ranks, not competing for overall.
- officelineback 10y ago
  It took several attempts at doubling down on the deception (riding the course on her bike and posting the Strava trace) and being repeatedly called out before she gave up and admitted it. Not nearly as laudable as admitting it as soon as someone accused her of cheating.
npunt 10y ago
I was commenting that buying instagram followers was relatively innocent, not that the act of cheating in a race was innocent. Sorry, I thought that was clear from the context. > To call this "trivial" seems like maybe you have no interest or experience with marathons? It might be trivial to you,... I never used the word trivial in my comment. You've successfully made a straw man and beat it to death :) I hope you don't mind if I take your double mis-reading of my comment to make a broader point: I think your reply is an unintentional but apt example of the righteousness that can get whipped up in these types of stories. Righteousness does some messed up stuff to our thought process. It filters things in a way to amplify the negativity of the behavior in question, crowding out nuance in the quest to reinforce belief. It looks like you latched onto the use of the word "innocent" and started your reply, and each follow-on sentence in your reply is your thought process reinforcing this emotion, which is increasingly divorced from the original post's point (how we police behavior in the age of the internet). Sorry to make a bit of an example of your post, but I recognize it because I've done the very same thing myself - it's something we're all susceptible to. I think the environment of internet comment threads supercharges this, as threads gain steam because they're public and can have many more participants dropping in to make a point or build on something someone else said. There's often no feedback loop to this bottom-up aggregate behavior, which can outsize the real world effects (the 'punishment') relative to the person's offense. This site [1] has a good summary of the emotional chain of causation for why we feel this way: * Intuition focuses the mind on a single strategy. An angry person can only see the reasons for anger. * Anger is an unconscious choice by the system. The whole body responds to the emotion. * Indignation also gains its power from the territorial instincts. * The amygdala triggers the anger emotion. * LTP (long term potentiation) makes the amygdala sensitive to imagined offence. * Self righteous indignation permits anger without guilt. Within the context we're talking about, this is really instructive. There are examples that describe each one of these points. And the sum of many people's anger without guilt can be fearsome. For what its worth, I'm in full agreement with you - it bothers me too seeing people cheat, or stolen valor, or any of these types of reprehensible behaviors. What I hope for is a society that polices bad behavior by giving appropriate punishment - where we find the right response that prevents future activity rather than simply seeking to satisfy our emotional desire for revenge. I worry internet shame posts may be more the latter than the former and may have terrible unintended consequences. [1] http://www.effective-mind-control.com/self-righteous-indignation.html http://www.effective-mind-control.com/self-righteous-indigna... (I have no idea about the rest of this site and cannot vouch for all of it, but this one page was pretty darn good)

by PKop 10y ago

runnr_az 10y ago

A little surprised to see this on the front page of HN, but I don't think we can deny that running is probably the nerdiest of sports. Anyway, that's nice that she owned up to it. Most of the cheaters don't. As a guy who's no doubt proved my running bonafides -- 3:06 marathon pr + there's a picture of me on the Western States 100 wikipedia page -- I always wonder why people get so angry about this kind of thing. I mean, sure, it's not cool to cheat, but this ain't the Olympics. Who gives a shit? Nothing is getting "stolen," especially not if you weren't in the top 10 or whatever.

brianwawok 10y ago
Cheating and doping both make me very angry as a casual athlete. I don't let it ruin my day, but it annoys me. Like come on, we are training 10h a week to go pay money to run a race and get a $1 medal. Let's kinda sorta keep it fair?
- runnr_az 10y ago
  Obviously, I'm not gonna defend those behaviors. It's kind of a cliche, but they're really only cheating themselves. As for the rest of us, who are we really racing against? Sure, there are the handful of jerks who you battle it out with on the local scene... and if one of those guys were to cheat, you're right, that would feel personal and that would piss me off. But if some other random runner cut the course? Aren't we pretty much all just racing ourselves, seeing how far and fast we can push our bodies?
  - brianwawok 10y ago
    Yes and that is how I stay sane. However I really like to see how I rank.. like "Last year I ran in the 50th percentile, this year I ran in the 90th". 1 cheater, meh. 100 cheaters? Meh messed up my math ;)
- orasis 10y ago
  That's an interesting perspective. I train Brazilian Jiu Jitsu with a bunch of guys that are on steroids and it doesn't bother me a bit. In my mind I just handicap myself vs their strength advantage so I'm happy with my relative performance.
  - brianwawok 10y ago
    What if one of them hurt you seriously, say causes paralysis? Would that be OK, because of course it could have happened anyway?
    - orasis 10y ago
      Heh. Actually I have a neck injury from a UFC fighter that was busted for doping. I don't blame him. He was just trying to keep his kids clothed and fed.
masterponomo 10y ago
I'm a casual runner, but I am engaged in a secret athletic struggle against my nemesis, a guy in my age group (55-59) who routinely finishes about 5 minutes ahead of me in local 5K races. It's a secret struggle because I'm not on even on his radar...but HE is on MINE. Believe me, if someone cheated and put yet another spot in the rankings between me and Nemesis, he would be stealing something important from me.
- runnr_az 10y ago
  Haha. Yeah... I totally hear ya. That's fair. It's important to have a Nemesis. Go get him!
justin66 10y ago
> I mean, sure, it's not cool to cheat, but this ain't the Olympics. Who gives a shit? People who value fair play and personal honor more highly than you do. (well, you asked) > Nothing is getting "stolen," Those whose rankings are affected by the cheater have had something taken from them.
- runnr_az 10y ago
  "God dammit! Don't you know who I am? I finished 355th at the North Face 50 Mile National Championships!" I mean... on some level, I get you. On another, though, I can assure you that no one cares about your marathon time or finishing place, unless you're at an elite level.
  - koreyb 10y ago
    This was a weak field local race with no prize money. She cheated out the top 3 female runners for bragging rights, that's really it. In a better stacked race her time would have been much further down in the AG ranks, not competing for overall.
officelineback 10y ago
It took several attempts at doubling down on the deception (riding the course on her bike and posting the Strava trace) and being repeatedly called out before she gave up and admitted it. Not nearly as laudable as admitting it as soon as someone accused her of cheating.

npunt 10y ago

I was commenting that buying instagram followers was relatively innocent, not that the act of cheating in a race was innocent. Sorry, I thought that was clear from the context. > To call this "trivial" seems like maybe you have no interest or experience with marathons? It might be trivial to you,... I never used the word trivial in my comment. You've successfully made a straw man and beat it to death :) I hope you don't mind if I take your double mis-reading of my comment to make a broader point: I think your reply is an unintentional but apt example of the righteousness that can get whipped up in these types of stories. Righteousness does some messed up stuff to our thought process. It filters things in a way to amplify the negativity of the behavior in question, crowding out nuance in the quest to reinforce belief. It looks like you latched onto the use of the word "innocent" and started your reply, and each follow-on sentence in your reply is your thought process reinforcing this emotion, which is increasingly divorced from the original post's point (how we police behavior in the age of the internet). Sorry to make a bit of an example of your post, but I recognize it because I've done the very same thing myself - it's something we're all susceptible to. I think the environment of internet comment threads supercharges this, as threads gain steam because they're public and can have many more participants dropping in to make a point or build on something someone else said. There's often no feedback loop to this bottom-up aggregate behavior, which can outsize the real world effects (the 'punishment') relative to the person's offense. This site [1] has a good summary of the emotional chain of causation for why we feel this way: * Intuition focuses the mind on a single strategy. An angry person can only see the reasons for anger. * Anger is an unconscious choice by the system. The whole body responds to the emotion. * Indignation also gains its power from the territorial instincts. * The amygdala triggers the anger emotion. * LTP (long term potentiation) makes the amygdala sensitive to imagined offence. * Self righteous indignation permits anger without guilt. Within the context we're talking about, this is really instructive. There are examples that describe each one of these points. And the sum of many people's anger without guilt can be fearsome. For what its worth, I'm in full agreement with you - it bothers me too seeing people cheat, or stolen valor, or any of these types of reprehensible behaviors. What I hope for is a society that polices bad behavior by giving appropriate punishment - where we find the right response that prevents future activity rather than simply seeking to satisfy our emotional desire for revenge. I worry internet shame posts may be more the latter than the former and may have terrible unintended consequences. [1] http://www.effective-mind-control.com/self-righteous-indignation.html http://www.effective-mind-control.com/self-righteous-indigna... (I have no idea about the rest of this site and cannot vouch for all of it, but this one page was pretty darn good)