7 ms·

Yes, which is why we need to (as a civilization) put more effort into grid-scale energy storage. My leading candidate for that is some kind of flow battery. T

by ansible 10y ago

Yes, which is why we need to (as a civilization) put more effort into grid-scale energy storage. My leading candidate for that is some kind of flow battery. There have recently been some announcements about a better and more stable electrolyte that is also non-toxic and non-corrosive. But as always, it might be five years (or never) before that gets commercialized.

rpedela 10y ago
Yeah a lithium-ion battery that doesn't catch fire and may be able to double energy density from PBS Nova [1] though I don't think the clip talks about energy density. 1. https://youtu.be/m9-cNNYb1Ik https://youtu.be/m9-cNNYb1Ik
maxerickson 10y ago
There's flow batteries being installed today: http://www.uetechnologies.com/18-news/articles/87-flow-battery-installed-in-washington http://www.uetechnologies.com/18-news/articles/87-flow-batte... 8 megawatt-hours is big enough that it will provide meaningful information about operating one on the grid. Tesla also has installed a megawatt hour scale system at a substation in California (using their lithium ion batteries).
the8472 10y ago
We'll need a lot more storage and overcapacity than people think. For example yesterday germany had a renewable fraction of around 50% throughout the whole day. Yay? Nope. During january there was a whole week where it was in the 0-10% range during the night and 5-20% during daytime. That means we don't just have to smooth out daily variability but on the span of multiple weeks. Of course that doesn't mean we need to store all of that in batteries or that we need to keep a whole shadow infrastructure of fossil/nuclear plants around. With enough overcapacity from renewables we could also produce hydrogen and store that for example and run it through fuel cells or gas plants when needed. But that still means that a bunch of smartmeters won't fix the issue, we'll need real infrastructure to handle that variability.
- rb808 10y ago
  In reality it means Wind and Solar really aren't suitable yet to take a significant part of the power supply in Europe.
  - the8472 10y ago
    We need to get from A to B. In between there'll be a time where this variability needs considerable conventional backup. We're living in that time.
- beat 10y ago
  It's not as bad as you think. The amount of storage capacity required is easily computed from known long-term weather patterns, and we can (and necessarily will) work toward it slowly. "More than people think"? Who cares what people think. It's still cheaper than fossil in the long run, and energy investment is long-term investment.
  - brandmeyer 10y ago
    I'm not convinced that it needs to be explicitly computed in a feedforward sense. If you just let the price float, then price will naturally form an error signal that the energy storage market (and customer demand) can respond to.
    - leereeves 10y ago
      Not many people will be happy "reducing customer demand" in the middle of the night in a bitter cold winter.
      - mrfusion 10y ago
        But their automated thermostat won't mind!
        brandmeyer 10y ago
knicholes 10y ago
Ever since I've heard about it, I've been rooting for the liquid metal battery. http://news.mit.edu/2016/battery-molten-metals-0112 http://news.mit.edu/2016/battery-molten-metals-0112 Last I read they're working on issues with the high-temperature seals. It'd be awesome to have a big shipping container in my neighborhood that just stores all of our energy for use during peak/off hours.
desireco42 10y ago
I think it will be multiple things, that would slowly converge to one or two solutions. Already you can see that Tesla's power wall works really well. Then you have other technologies that would allow cities to store energy. I think we are slowly getting there.
- greglindahl 10y ago
  Tesla is selling a lot more Powerpack (industrial or grid scale storage) than Powerwall (home storage.)
  - desireco42 10y ago
    I heard of single municipal installation. Powerwall will make a difference as it enables people to use energy and draw them at different times.

by ansible 10y ago

rpedela 10y ago

Yeah a lithium-ion battery that doesn't catch fire and may be able to double energy density from PBS Nova [1] though I don't think the clip talks about energy density. 1. https://youtu.be/m9-cNNYb1Ik https://youtu.be/m9-cNNYb1Ik

maxerickson 10y ago

There's flow batteries being installed today: http://www.uetechnologies.com/18-news/articles/87-flow-battery-installed-in-washington http://www.uetechnologies.com/18-news/articles/87-flow-batte... 8 megawatt-hours is big enough that it will provide meaningful information about operating one on the grid. Tesla also has installed a megawatt hour scale system at a substation in California (using their lithium ion batteries).

the8472 10y ago

We'll need a lot more storage and overcapacity than people think. For example yesterday germany had a renewable fraction of around 50% throughout the whole day. Yay? Nope. During january there was a whole week where it was in the 0-10% range during the night and 5-20% during daytime. That means we don't just have to smooth out daily variability but on the span of multiple weeks. Of course that doesn't mean we need to store all of that in batteries or that we need to keep a whole shadow infrastructure of fossil/nuclear plants around. With enough overcapacity from renewables we could also produce hydrogen and store that for example and run it through fuel cells or gas plants when needed. But that still means that a bunch of smartmeters won't fix the issue, we'll need real infrastructure to handle that variability.

rb808 10y ago
In reality it means Wind and Solar really aren't suitable yet to take a significant part of the power supply in Europe.
- the8472 10y ago
  We need to get from A to B. In between there'll be a time where this variability needs considerable conventional backup. We're living in that time.
beat 10y ago
It's not as bad as you think. The amount of storage capacity required is easily computed from known long-term weather patterns, and we can (and necessarily will) work toward it slowly. "More than people think"? Who cares what people think. It's still cheaper than fossil in the long run, and energy investment is long-term investment.
- brandmeyer 10y ago
  I'm not convinced that it needs to be explicitly computed in a feedforward sense. If you just let the price float, then price will naturally form an error signal that the energy storage market (and customer demand) can respond to.
  - leereeves 10y ago
    Not many people will be happy "reducing customer demand" in the middle of the night in a bitter cold winter.
    - mrfusion 10y ago
      But their automated thermostat won't mind!
      - brandmeyer 10y ago

knicholes 10y ago

Ever since I've heard about it, I've been rooting for the liquid metal battery. http://news.mit.edu/2016/battery-molten-metals-0112 http://news.mit.edu/2016/battery-molten-metals-0112 Last I read they're working on issues with the high-temperature seals. It'd be awesome to have a big shipping container in my neighborhood that just stores all of our energy for use during peak/off hours.

desireco42 10y ago

I think it will be multiple things, that would slowly converge to one or two solutions. Already you can see that Tesla's power wall works really well. Then you have other technologies that would allow cities to store energy. I think we are slowly getting there.

greglindahl 10y ago
Tesla is selling a lot more Powerpack (industrial or grid scale storage) than Powerwall (home storage.)
- desireco42 10y ago
  I heard of single municipal installation. Powerwall will make a difference as it enables people to use energy and draw them at different times.