4 ms·

> How do you feel about tech in general where diversity > is big issue. I do not feel it is an issue at all. Unless you think that there is some deliberate

> How do you feel about tech in general where diversity > is big issue. I do not feel it is an issue at all. Unless you think that there is some deliberate attempt to prevent blacks and hispanics from joining IT. Why does some field need to mirror racial/whatever composition of the society? Are you concerned that NBA demobraphics does not represent general demographics?

PaulRobinson 10y ago
You're straying onto dangerous territory. Your argument is built on one of meritocracy, but you're implying that non-white and/or non-males are proportionally less able to think analytically than white males. There is no evidence to support that, and in fact such a suggestion is just outright racism. A field that basically runs society should ideally mirror that society's composition. Diversity is healthy, particularly in an industry that attempts to combine creative and analytical thought inside multiple models of economic and political philosophy. The fact women and non-white people are under-represented in our industry is a major problem for its long-term health. "Software is eating the World". Put another way, "Ideas created by white men are eating the World, in a way that is fully automated and potentially oppressive." History suggests we should have a rethink before we go much further.
- Khaine 10y ago
  But then why are 90% of long distance runners or the NBA black, and why is that okay? I honestly don't think that non-white and/or non-males are proportionally less able to think analytically than white males. I think that on average they have less education, and a culture that does not promote intellectual pursuit. Those are the things that need to change, and if you change that it should then flow through into programming.
  - foldr 10y ago
    >But then why are 90% of long distance runners or the NBA black, and why is that okay? What makes you so sure it's ok? It's really for people who are involved with long-distance running and/or the NBA to figure that issue out, since they have the relevant background knowledge. Programmers often have misconceptions about the level of concern for diversity in other fields. For example, a common trope is that no-one is worried about the fact that most nurses are women. But in fact people in the nursing profession are worried about this, and there are efforts to recruit more men. I have a feeling that somewhere over on the NBA forum, someone is saying "but then why are 90% of programmers men, and why is that ok?"
- programmernews3 10y ago
  >There is no evidence to support that Here are a few papers to look over. McGurk, F. C. F. (1953). On white and Negro test performance and socio-economic factors. Journal of Abnormal and Social Psychology 37: 484-450. Garrett, H. E. (1961). The Equalitarian Dogma. Perspectives in Biology and Medicine 4: 480-484. PMID 13703734. Baker, J. R. (1974). Race, Oxford, UK: Oxford University Press. Waldman, I. D., Weinberg, R. A. and Scarr, S. (1994). Racial-Group Differences in IQ in the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study: A Reply to Levin and Lynn. Intelligence 19: 29-44. Jensen, A. R. (1973). Educability and Group Differences, London: Methuen. ISBN 0-06-012194-7. Jensen, A. R. (1997). "The Puzzle of Nongenetic Variance" R. J. Sternberg and E. L. Grigorenko Intelligence, Heredity, and Environment, Cambridge, England: Cambridge University Press. ISBN. Jensen, A. R. (1998a). Adoption Data and Two g-Related Hypotheses. Intelligence 25: 1-6. Jensen, A. R. and Johnson, F. W. (1994). Race and Sex Differences in Head Size and IQ. Intelligence 18: 309-333. Jensen, A. R. and Reynolds, C. R. (1982). Race, Social Class and Ability Patterns on the WISC-R. Personality and Individual Differences 3 (4): 423-438. Jensen, A. R. and Whang, P. A. (1994). Speed of Accessing Arithmetic Facts in Long-Term Memory: A Comparison of Chinese-American and Anglo-American Children. Contemporary Educational Psychology 19: 1-12. Rushton, J. P. (1989a). Japanese Inbreeding Depression Scores: Predictors of Cognitive Differences between Blacks and Whites. Intelligence 13: 43-51. Rushton, J. P. (1989b). The Evolution of Racial Differences: A Response to M. Lynn. Journal of Research in Personality 23: 7-20. Rushton, J. P. (1991). Mongoloid-Caucasoid Differences in Brain Size from Military Samples. Intelligence 15 (3): 351-359. Rushton, J. P. (1992). Cranial Capacity Related to Sex, Rank, and Race in a Stratified Random Sample of 6,325 U.S. Military Personnel. Intelligence 16: 401-413. Rushton, J. P. (1994). Sex and Race Differences in Cranial Capacity from International Labour Office Data. Intelligence 19: 281-294. Rushton, J. P. (1996). Race, Intelligence, and the Brain: The Errors and Omissions of the Revised Edition of S. J. Gould's the Mismeasure of Man. Personality and Individual Differences 23: 169-180. Rushton, J. P. (1997). Cranial Size and IQ in Asian Americans from Birth to Age Seven. Intelligence 25: 7-20. Rushton, J. P. (1999). Secular Gains in IQ Not Related to the g Factor and Inbreeding Depression--Unlike Black-White Differences: A Reply to Flynn. Personality and Individual Differences 26: 381-389. Rushton, J. P. (2000). Race, Evolution, and Behavior: A Life History Perspective, 3rd, Port Huron, MI: Charles Darwin Research Institute. ISBN 0-9656836-1-3. Rushton, J. P. (2001). Black-White Differences on the g Factor in South Africa: A "Jensen Effect" On the Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children--Revised. Personality and Individual Differences 31: 1227-1232. Rushton, J. P. (2002). Jensen Effects and African/Coloured/Indian/White Differences on Raven's Standard Progressive Matrices in South Africa. Personality and Individual Differences 33: 1279-1284. Rushton, J. P. (2005). (Book review) Lynn Richard, Race Differences in Intelligence: An Evolutionary Analysis. Personality and Individual Differences: In press. Rushton, J. P. and Ankney, C. D. (2000). Size Matters: A Review and New Analyses of Racial Differences in Cranial Capacity and Intelligence That Refute Kamin and Omari. Personality and Individual Differences 29: 591-620. Rushton, J. P. and Ankney, C. D. (1996). Brain Size and Cognitive Ability: Correlations with Age, Sex, Social Class, and Race. Psychonomic Bulletin and Review 3: 21-36. Rushton, J. P., Brainerd, C. J. and Pressley, M. (1983). Behavioral Development and Construct Validity: The Principle of Aggregation. Psychological Bulletin 94: 18-38. Rushton, J. P. and Jensen, A. R. (2003). African-White IQ Differences from Zimbabwe on the Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children--Revised Are Mainly on the g Factor. Personality and Individual Differences 34: 177-183. Rushton, J. P. and Jensen, A. R. (Jun 2005). Thirty Years of Research on Race Differences in Cognitive Ability. Psychology, Public Policy, and Law 11: 235-294. Rushton, J. P. and Jensen, A. R. (Jun 2005). Wanted: More Race Realism, Less Moralistic Fallacy. Psychology, Public Policy, and Law 11 (2): 328-336. Rushton, J.P., and A.R. Jensen (In press). The totality of available evidence shows race-IQ gap still remains. Psychological Science. Rushton, J. P. and Osborne, R. T. (1995). Genetic and Environmental Contributions to Cranial Capacity in Black and White Adolescents. Intelligence 20: 1-13. Rushton, J. P. and Skuy, M. (Winter 2000). Performance on Raven's Matrices by African and White University Students in South Africa. Intelligence 28 (4): 251-265. Rushton, J. P., Skuy, M. and Fridjhon, P. (2002). Jensen Effects among African, Indian, and White Engineering Students in South Africa on Raven's Standard Progressive Matrices. Intelligence 30: 409-423. Rushton, J. P., Skuy, M. and Fridjhon, P. (2003). Performance on Raven's Advanced Progressive Matrices by African, East Indian, and White Engineering Students in South Africa [Electronic Version]. Intelligence 31: 123-137.
- ganfortran 10y ago
  > A field that basically runs society Fact 1: In the House of Representatives, women hold just 83 (19.1%) of the 435 seats. Fact 2: In the Senate, women hold just 21 (21%) of the 100 seats Politics as a field disagrees. And it has been running like this for a long time, I guess? One thing I don't get is that, when people talk about NBA, with very little Asian representation, they will gladly accept the fact that Asian men are, physically not as capable as African Americans, but freak out when it comes to the tech sector. Isn't this hypocritical? Diversity is a good thing to have, but I don't think it is more essential than, software engineering skills, itself, when hiring a software engineer. Companies are not charity, they hire engineers because they need engineers. If the demographics of engineers reflect the overall demographics, diversity will come to companies naturally. Maybe one should ask the right question how to educate more african/hispanic engineers, and Asian basketball players than trying to find them only when blame comes.
  - soundwave106 10y ago
    Up to 1916, those US government numbers were respectively 0 (0%) and 0 (0%). So there has been a slow adjustment. The problem here is that it is not necessarily talent / genes / physical characteristics that is the barrier here. I agree it is better to ask questions on what the gaps potentially are (and if they are fixable) rather than assign blame or feign outrage. I would caution in any genetic assumption, though, unless it is backed by really good data. One only has to point to the old discredited eugenics philosophy to show the dangers here. From looking at the international community's CS graduation rate, there is a high degree of variability. 40% of Mexican CS graduates are women, and 10% of Switzerland CS graduates are women (https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/03/there-are-only-3-countries-where-girls-feel-more-comfortable-with-math-than-boys/284272/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/03/th...). Googling, women as a percentage of graduates is even roughly at parity or even with women as a majority in certain countries (Malaysia and some Arab countries). Based on this, I would consider culture to be more of a dominant factor in explaining the current CS gap rather than anything genetic based. Some of the issues that create a lack of diversity reflect current norms that, if adjusted, would in my opinion improve everyone's lives. For example, from what I've read, at least some of the gap regarding women achievement in the work force (in general) can be ascribed to a combination of work-family balance concerns, tradition (women "traditionally" run the household), and America's high pressure, "more hours" oriented work culture. This honestly doesn't sound like a bad thing to fix for men in the IT workforce, either.
matthewmacleod 10y ago
Why does some field need to mirror racial/whatever composition of the society? If it doesn't, then it's pretty suggestive that there's a wider problem. Why do people from different backgrounds not enter that profession? Are they being discouraged somehow, and how can that be avoided? Diversity is an self-evident good, in that multiple backgrounds and experiences result in a more well-rounded team. Trying to make sure you have that benefit is good sense.
- ad-hominem 10y ago
  > Diversity is an self-evident good, in that multiple backgrounds and experiences result in a more well-rounded team This is not a fact. This is your opinion.

PaulRobinson 10y ago

You're straying onto dangerous territory. Your argument is built on one of meritocracy, but you're implying that non-white and/or non-males are proportionally less able to think analytically than white males. There is no evidence to support that, and in fact such a suggestion is just outright racism. A field that basically runs society should ideally mirror that society's composition. Diversity is healthy, particularly in an industry that attempts to combine creative and analytical thought inside multiple models of economic and political philosophy. The fact women and non-white people are under-represented in our industry is a major problem for its long-term health. "Software is eating the World". Put another way, "Ideas created by white men are eating the World, in a way that is fully automated and potentially oppressive." History suggests we should have a rethink before we go much further.

Khaine 10y ago
But then why are 90% of long distance runners or the NBA black, and why is that okay? I honestly don't think that non-white and/or non-males are proportionally less able to think analytically than white males. I think that on average they have less education, and a culture that does not promote intellectual pursuit. Those are the things that need to change, and if you change that it should then flow through into programming.
- foldr 10y ago
  >But then why are 90% of long distance runners or the NBA black, and why is that okay? What makes you so sure it's ok? It's really for people who are involved with long-distance running and/or the NBA to figure that issue out, since they have the relevant background knowledge. Programmers often have misconceptions about the level of concern for diversity in other fields. For example, a common trope is that no-one is worried about the fact that most nurses are women. But in fact people in the nursing profession are worried about this, and there are efforts to recruit more men. I have a feeling that somewhere over on the NBA forum, someone is saying "but then why are 90% of programmers men, and why is that ok?"
programmernews3 10y ago
>There is no evidence to support that Here are a few papers to look over. McGurk, F. C. F. (1953). On white and Negro test performance and socio-economic factors. Journal of Abnormal and Social Psychology 37: 484-450. Garrett, H. E. (1961). The Equalitarian Dogma. Perspectives in Biology and Medicine 4: 480-484. PMID 13703734. Baker, J. R. (1974). Race, Oxford, UK: Oxford University Press. Waldman, I. D., Weinberg, R. A. and Scarr, S. (1994). Racial-Group Differences in IQ in the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study: A Reply to Levin and Lynn. Intelligence 19: 29-44. Jensen, A. R. (1973). Educability and Group Differences, London: Methuen. ISBN 0-06-012194-7. Jensen, A. R. (1997). "The Puzzle of Nongenetic Variance" R. J. Sternberg and E. L. Grigorenko Intelligence, Heredity, and Environment, Cambridge, England: Cambridge University Press. ISBN. Jensen, A. R. (1998a). Adoption Data and Two g-Related Hypotheses. Intelligence 25: 1-6. Jensen, A. R. and Johnson, F. W. (1994). Race and Sex Differences in Head Size and IQ. Intelligence 18: 309-333. Jensen, A. R. and Reynolds, C. R. (1982). Race, Social Class and Ability Patterns on the WISC-R. Personality and Individual Differences 3 (4): 423-438. Jensen, A. R. and Whang, P. A. (1994). Speed of Accessing Arithmetic Facts in Long-Term Memory: A Comparison of Chinese-American and Anglo-American Children. Contemporary Educational Psychology 19: 1-12. Rushton, J. P. (1989a). Japanese Inbreeding Depression Scores: Predictors of Cognitive Differences between Blacks and Whites. Intelligence 13: 43-51. Rushton, J. P. (1989b). The Evolution of Racial Differences: A Response to M. Lynn. Journal of Research in Personality 23: 7-20. Rushton, J. P. (1991). Mongoloid-Caucasoid Differences in Brain Size from Military Samples. Intelligence 15 (3): 351-359. Rushton, J. P. (1992). Cranial Capacity Related to Sex, Rank, and Race in a Stratified Random Sample of 6,325 U.S. Military Personnel. Intelligence 16: 401-413. Rushton, J. P. (1994). Sex and Race Differences in Cranial Capacity from International Labour Office Data. Intelligence 19: 281-294. Rushton, J. P. (1996). Race, Intelligence, and the Brain: The Errors and Omissions of the Revised Edition of S. J. Gould's the Mismeasure of Man. Personality and Individual Differences 23: 169-180. Rushton, J. P. (1997). Cranial Size and IQ in Asian Americans from Birth to Age Seven. Intelligence 25: 7-20. Rushton, J. P. (1999). Secular Gains in IQ Not Related to the g Factor and Inbreeding Depression--Unlike Black-White Differences: A Reply to Flynn. Personality and Individual Differences 26: 381-389. Rushton, J. P. (2000). Race, Evolution, and Behavior: A Life History Perspective, 3rd, Port Huron, MI: Charles Darwin Research Institute. ISBN 0-9656836-1-3. Rushton, J. P. (2001). Black-White Differences on the g Factor in South Africa: A "Jensen Effect" On the Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children--Revised. Personality and Individual Differences 31: 1227-1232. Rushton, J. P. (2002). Jensen Effects and African/Coloured/Indian/White Differences on Raven's Standard Progressive Matrices in South Africa. Personality and Individual Differences 33: 1279-1284. Rushton, J. P. (2005). (Book review) Lynn Richard, Race Differences in Intelligence: An Evolutionary Analysis. Personality and Individual Differences: In press. Rushton, J. P. and Ankney, C. D. (2000). Size Matters: A Review and New Analyses of Racial Differences in Cranial Capacity and Intelligence That Refute Kamin and Omari. Personality and Individual Differences 29: 591-620. Rushton, J. P. and Ankney, C. D. (1996). Brain Size and Cognitive Ability: Correlations with Age, Sex, Social Class, and Race. Psychonomic Bulletin and Review 3: 21-36. Rushton, J. P., Brainerd, C. J. and Pressley, M. (1983). Behavioral Development and Construct Validity: The Principle of Aggregation. Psychological Bulletin 94: 18-38. Rushton, J. P. and Jensen, A. R. (2003). African-White IQ Differences from Zimbabwe on the Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children--Revised Are Mainly on the g Factor. Personality and Individual Differences 34: 177-183. Rushton, J. P. and Jensen, A. R. (Jun 2005). Thirty Years of Research on Race Differences in Cognitive Ability. Psychology, Public Policy, and Law 11: 235-294. Rushton, J. P. and Jensen, A. R. (Jun 2005). Wanted: More Race Realism, Less Moralistic Fallacy. Psychology, Public Policy, and Law 11 (2): 328-336. Rushton, J.P., and A.R. Jensen (In press). The totality of available evidence shows race-IQ gap still remains. Psychological Science. Rushton, J. P. and Osborne, R. T. (1995). Genetic and Environmental Contributions to Cranial Capacity in Black and White Adolescents. Intelligence 20: 1-13. Rushton, J. P. and Skuy, M. (Winter 2000). Performance on Raven's Matrices by African and White University Students in South Africa. Intelligence 28 (4): 251-265. Rushton, J. P., Skuy, M. and Fridjhon, P. (2002). Jensen Effects among African, Indian, and White Engineering Students in South Africa on Raven's Standard Progressive Matrices. Intelligence 30: 409-423. Rushton, J. P., Skuy, M. and Fridjhon, P. (2003). Performance on Raven's Advanced Progressive Matrices by African, East Indian, and White Engineering Students in South Africa [Electronic Version]. Intelligence 31: 123-137.
ganfortran 10y ago
> A field that basically runs society Fact 1: In the House of Representatives, women hold just 83 (19.1%) of the 435 seats. Fact 2: In the Senate, women hold just 21 (21%) of the 100 seats Politics as a field disagrees. And it has been running like this for a long time, I guess? One thing I don't get is that, when people talk about NBA, with very little Asian representation, they will gladly accept the fact that Asian men are, physically not as capable as African Americans, but freak out when it comes to the tech sector. Isn't this hypocritical? Diversity is a good thing to have, but I don't think it is more essential than, software engineering skills, itself, when hiring a software engineer. Companies are not charity, they hire engineers because they need engineers. If the demographics of engineers reflect the overall demographics, diversity will come to companies naturally. Maybe one should ask the right question how to educate more african/hispanic engineers, and Asian basketball players than trying to find them only when blame comes.
- soundwave106 10y ago
  Up to 1916, those US government numbers were respectively 0 (0%) and 0 (0%). So there has been a slow adjustment. The problem here is that it is not necessarily talent / genes / physical characteristics that is the barrier here. I agree it is better to ask questions on what the gaps potentially are (and if they are fixable) rather than assign blame or feign outrage. I would caution in any genetic assumption, though, unless it is backed by really good data. One only has to point to the old discredited eugenics philosophy to show the dangers here. From looking at the international community's CS graduation rate, there is a high degree of variability. 40% of Mexican CS graduates are women, and 10% of Switzerland CS graduates are women (https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/03/there-are-only-3-countries-where-girls-feel-more-comfortable-with-math-than-boys/284272/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/03/th...). Googling, women as a percentage of graduates is even roughly at parity or even with women as a majority in certain countries (Malaysia and some Arab countries). Based on this, I would consider culture to be more of a dominant factor in explaining the current CS gap rather than anything genetic based. Some of the issues that create a lack of diversity reflect current norms that, if adjusted, would in my opinion improve everyone's lives. For example, from what I've read, at least some of the gap regarding women achievement in the work force (in general) can be ascribed to a combination of work-family balance concerns, tradition (women "traditionally" run the household), and America's high pressure, "more hours" oriented work culture. This honestly doesn't sound like a bad thing to fix for men in the IT workforce, either.

matthewmacleod 10y ago

Why does some field need to mirror racial/whatever composition of the society? If it doesn't, then it's pretty suggestive that there's a wider problem. Why do people from different backgrounds not enter that profession? Are they being discouraged somehow, and how can that be avoided? Diversity is an self-evident good, in that multiple backgrounds and experiences result in a more well-rounded team. Trying to make sure you have that benefit is good sense.

ad-hominem 10y ago
> Diversity is an self-evident good, in that multiple backgrounds and experiences result in a more well-rounded team This is not a fact. This is your opinion.