4 ms·

I also have some questions to Facebook engineers. How do you feel about working on something that is destroying the free and open Web? How do you find satisfact

by raizu 10y ago

I also have some questions to Facebook engineers. How do you feel about working on something that is destroying the free and open Web? How do you find satisfaction in developing a virtual cage for humanity? Do you ever become depressed when thinking about that you are using your best years, working at an extremely unethical company whose only purpose is to tricking people into clicking on ads?

tasuki 10y ago
All three questions you pose are loaded questions.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
hnarn 10y ago
Have you stopped beating your wife?
lnalx 10y ago
I support FOSS initiative and open web but as a software engineer, working for company like FB is pretty challenging. It's exciting to work on a software used by billion of user, you learn a lot, you cannot argue against that. It's not by developing this kind of software you support the capitalization of internet but by using it. Makers are not necessarily users.
- mathgeek 10y ago
  It's a loaded question, sure, but let me play devil's advocate here for a sec. You're basically using the same argument that NSA engineers use to validate the creation of spy software. I'm not saying FB is inherently evil, or that it's immoral to work there. Just pointing out the similarity in your specific base of argument.
ionised 10y ago
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”
- bbcbasic 10y ago
  I don't think that applies. There is been ethical questionability in almost every company. If not their business model then some of their actions. "It's just business" is the mantra. I think most people are smart enough to understand even if they are taking a salary from the company.
thenomad 10y ago
Not only is this not really an appropriate response for the topic, but I'd imagine its presence will also make FB employees feel unwelcome and less like answering the OP's question. I'm not the biggest fan of everything FB does, but you're basically wrecking someone else's sincere "Ask HN" post here.
- collyw 10y ago
  It would still be nice to hear Facebookers thoughts on this though.
  - lbrandy 10y ago
    Do you really want my thoughts? The question isn't asked in good faith, so it doesn't deserve a good faith answer. The account was also created just to make that post. And yet it was upvoted by the community. And that speaks poorly of said community's ability to have a good faith conversation on the topic too. For better or worse, this isn't a place that this conversation can happen productively, so it doesn't. There was a time that I and others would have happily had this conversation on HN but the community has changed quite a bit from then till now.
    - strgrd 10y ago
      What is this mythical "appropriate conversation" you are alluding to? That Facebook's primary incentive is to create as much detailed information about the individual as possible, in order to broker that information to advertisers and surveillance regimes? I think you just don't want to have that conversation :-)
      - LithuaniaFirst 10y ago
        I am not a huge fan of Fb or other soc media, but I consider this data mining era as unavoidable and from other hand, some day all that info might even help humanity (or damage it, of course). So, we can consider this power as a Pandora's box and I am pretty happy that it is only there in FB (well, and Google, Microsoft, etc.) and i am pretty sure you, as well as many others would like to open that box and see inside. Good is that you, or me, or anyone else cant do that. Good is that if something will go very wrong, we will know who to blame. But nothing will go wrong as long as bad guys (who afraid surveillance) does not have a chance to touch that box.
str33t_punk 10y ago
Woooooow hahahahaha Someone didn't get the call back from FB recruiters. But really, bringing this kind of vitriol to an Ask HN is counter productive
bluefox 10y ago
Come now, Facebook is more than that. For example, it also helps governments spy on their own citizens as well as other governments.
leesalminen 10y ago
That was my first question as well!
stopachka 10y ago
We don't think that's what Facebook is doing :)
cbhl 10y ago
Disclaimer: I work at Google. Facebook is far from being the first company to have these criticisms leveled at them, and it won't be the last. There are people who work at Facebook and Google who care about having a free and open web. That's how you get the Open Graph Protocol, Download Your Info, GMail Email Markup, and Google Takeout. But living in a free and open web is really something only hetero white men can do. Virtually anyone else (women, lesbian/gay/bi/trans, ethnic minorities) needs tools to protect their privacy and manage/block/prevent harassment at scale. Ads are a way of paying engineers' salaries. Many ads suck, and one way to help make the world a better place is to work on weeding out the bad ones (the ones that install malware) or making it easier to create good ones. The good ads are the ones that are relevant, that inform, entertain, and make you feel good. Heck, I'd argue that half the articles on the front page of HN on any given day are native ads that serve this purpose.
- z0r 10y ago
  I don't understand how your response addresses the question asked. I don't understand your hetero white men comment either. I would argue that Facebook and its ilk are destroying the ability to keep a private life (nevermind "harassment at scale"), and that's uniformly true for minorities as well as majorities. Good answer about ads though. And working in this business seems more morally defensible than working in the defence sector, although the more you think about it the less that holds up. (and Google is definitely not Facebook, which works to normalize the panopticon existence)
dejawu 10y ago
I'm no fan of FB either, but come on, what are you hoping to accomplish with this sort of vitriol?

by raizu 10y ago

tasuki 10y ago

All three questions you pose are loaded questions.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

hnarn 10y ago

Have you stopped beating your wife?

lnalx 10y ago

I support FOSS initiative and open web but as a software engineer, working for company like FB is pretty challenging. It's exciting to work on a software used by billion of user, you learn a lot, you cannot argue against that. It's not by developing this kind of software you support the capitalization of internet but by using it. Makers are not necessarily users.

mathgeek 10y ago
It's a loaded question, sure, but let me play devil's advocate here for a sec. You're basically using the same argument that NSA engineers use to validate the creation of spy software. I'm not saying FB is inherently evil, or that it's immoral to work there. Just pointing out the similarity in your specific base of argument.

ionised 10y ago

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

bbcbasic 10y ago
I don't think that applies. There is been ethical questionability in almost every company. If not their business model then some of their actions. "It's just business" is the mantra. I think most people are smart enough to understand even if they are taking a salary from the company.

thenomad 10y ago

Not only is this not really an appropriate response for the topic, but I'd imagine its presence will also make FB employees feel unwelcome and less like answering the OP's question. I'm not the biggest fan of everything FB does, but you're basically wrecking someone else's sincere "Ask HN" post here.

collyw 10y ago
It would still be nice to hear Facebookers thoughts on this though.
- lbrandy 10y ago
  Do you really want my thoughts? The question isn't asked in good faith, so it doesn't deserve a good faith answer. The account was also created just to make that post. And yet it was upvoted by the community. And that speaks poorly of said community's ability to have a good faith conversation on the topic too. For better or worse, this isn't a place that this conversation can happen productively, so it doesn't. There was a time that I and others would have happily had this conversation on HN but the community has changed quite a bit from then till now.
  - strgrd 10y ago
    What is this mythical "appropriate conversation" you are alluding to? That Facebook's primary incentive is to create as much detailed information about the individual as possible, in order to broker that information to advertisers and surveillance regimes? I think you just don't want to have that conversation :-)
    - LithuaniaFirst 10y ago
      I am not a huge fan of Fb or other soc media, but I consider this data mining era as unavoidable and from other hand, some day all that info might even help humanity (or damage it, of course). So, we can consider this power as a Pandora's box and I am pretty happy that it is only there in FB (well, and Google, Microsoft, etc.) and i am pretty sure you, as well as many others would like to open that box and see inside. Good is that you, or me, or anyone else cant do that. Good is that if something will go very wrong, we will know who to blame. But nothing will go wrong as long as bad guys (who afraid surveillance) does not have a chance to touch that box.

str33t_punk 10y ago

Woooooow hahahahaha Someone didn't get the call back from FB recruiters. But really, bringing this kind of vitriol to an Ask HN is counter productive

bluefox 10y ago

Come now, Facebook is more than that. For example, it also helps governments spy on their own citizens as well as other governments.

leesalminen 10y ago

That was my first question as well!

stopachka 10y ago

We don't think that's what Facebook is doing :)

cbhl 10y ago

Disclaimer: I work at Google. Facebook is far from being the first company to have these criticisms leveled at them, and it won't be the last. There are people who work at Facebook and Google who care about having a free and open web. That's how you get the Open Graph Protocol, Download Your Info, GMail Email Markup, and Google Takeout. But living in a free and open web is really something only hetero white men can do. Virtually anyone else (women, lesbian/gay/bi/trans, ethnic minorities) needs tools to protect their privacy and manage/block/prevent harassment at scale. Ads are a way of paying engineers' salaries. Many ads suck, and one way to help make the world a better place is to work on weeding out the bad ones (the ones that install malware) or making it easier to create good ones. The good ads are the ones that are relevant, that inform, entertain, and make you feel good. Heck, I'd argue that half the articles on the front page of HN on any given day are native ads that serve this purpose.

z0r 10y ago
I don't understand how your response addresses the question asked. I don't understand your hetero white men comment either. I would argue that Facebook and its ilk are destroying the ability to keep a private life (nevermind "harassment at scale"), and that's uniformly true for minorities as well as majorities. Good answer about ads though. And working in this business seems more morally defensible than working in the defence sector, although the more you think about it the less that holds up. (and Google is definitely not Facebook, which works to normalize the panopticon existence)

dejawu 10y ago

I'm no fan of FB either, but come on, what are you hoping to accomplish with this sort of vitriol?