4 ms·

So I am presuming you are male. I am presuming you did not get her explicit permission to post that here. I see you also do not really give her credit by name,

by Mz 10y ago

So I am presuming you are male. I am presuming you did not get her explicit permission to post that here. I see you also do not really give her credit by name, supporting link, whatever -- probably because you do not have her permission. Maybe you should wonder a bit more about why your experience at the company is "great" when all I hear seems to be about how completely poisonous the company is. Because it looks like you may be part of the problem, not part of the solution. Edit: I say that because you are using some woman's words out of context to further your agenda in a predominantly male discussion forum. This is suspicious behavior, at best. It fits completely with what I have read Susan Fowler say about how women got treated there while she was working there. I wish more people readily recognized the pattern and how very ugly it is.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
kposehn 10y ago
I understand your suspicion, but there is no agenda. That said, your point about a pattern of sorts is something that did give me pause. I did get permission and chose not to post her name for privacy' sake. I hope that allays your concerns somewhat :)
- jetcata 10y ago
  What is it you want to discuss then? What is your agenda here? To say "not all of Uber is bad"? Whilst that may be the case, there's no denying what actually happened and that there are significant organizational and cultural issues in the company.
  - kposehn 10y ago
    Not really an agenda per se, more that I trust the HN community to think about solutions to problems at scale - such as culture at scale. I'd love input on how to manage cultures and performance in a massive global org, purely because I want to learn how this sort of thing can be avoided for all of us, not just Uber. How do you allow a fast, push-the-envelope culture without it getting out of hand? How can orgs that grow extremely rapidly handle these situations and work to not have them happen in the first place? So many questions, really. Trying to find a good place to start. Any thoughts?
    - jetcata 10y ago
      It's fairly simple - zero tolerance when it comes to harassment is a great place to start, offenders are sent packing. Leadership sets an example of what behavior is acceptable and what isn't and management enforces it. You also look out for culture fit when hiring - you don't just hire on technical competency, you also actively check that someone isn't an asshole, no matter how well they perform. Edit: The question is, what will you do with the above advice? Will you take action and make improvements? Because otherwise this discussion was for nothing.
    - yestoallthat 10y ago
      > Not really an agenda per se, more that I trust the HN community to think about solutions to problems at scale - such as culture at scale. Your initial comment doesn't even hint at that. It's just a random anecdote of someone who has a good time at Uber. So to me it seems like you're kind of making it up as you go along, and > I'd love input on I kind of read as "I want to change the subject away from my initial post, what it means and just how tone deaf that is", but I'll humour you anyway. > How do you allow a fast, push-the-envelope culture without it getting out of hand? Here's a radical thought: You can't, and healthy societies made up of healthy individuals wouldn't have a need for them either, since time is infinite, there is no need to hustle and rush. This is only required for grabbing bigger pieces of a limited pie for yourself, for man waging war on man - not for expanding the size of the pie for all, for competition with more sportsmanship and integrity. Empathy plays a big role here, people trapped in their own bodies and lifetimes consider this view childish and irrational - but that is mutual, I see many people as junkies who keep claiming they would be content if they just had some more, but really, it's just the monkey on their back talking, which seeks approval and materials from the outside, as a substitute for what they can't grow from the inside. You might have noticed by now, I don't even accept any of your premises. From where I'm sitting, you're asking how to rationalize bugs into features, and how to make more of them. > How can orgs that grow extremely rapidly handle these situations By caring less about money and more about personality and craftsmanship. That is, more about life than survival, and more about what to use resources for than how to grab them the fastest in the shortest amount of time. Then these "orgs" wouldn't need to blame the environment for not accommodating their defects. > Trying to find a good place to start. I can recommend Erich Fromm's "The Sane Society".
- Mz 10y ago
  I am glad to hear it gave you pause. As a woman who has a history of being influential and getting no credit for it whatsoever, which has real world negative impact on me, let me respectfully suggest that in the future you clearly state up front "posted with permission" and "name withheld to respect her privacy."
makeramen 10y ago
Please open your mind to the possibility of cognitive bias on your part. "All you hear" is unlikely to be an accurate generalization of the thousands of people who work at Uber. Until you overcome that bias, you are also part of the problem.
stagbeetle 10y ago
As a man, I have no idea what it's like to be a woman. Whenever I see women's problems, I want to understand, but most highly educated women argue in the same tone as your statement: highly condescending and cold. I won't bring politics in or specifically state what's wrong with your statement (because I fear for my ability to post within a reasonable amount of time), all I'll say is that people are not sympathetic to groups that are violent (in argument or action).
- kposehn 10y ago
  I think Mz was trying to edit to a better state but it's hard. Emotions can run high with these subjects :)
- Mz 10y ago
  The internet (by which I mean written text, like here) does not have voice tone. Your perception that my words are highly condescending and cold is your bias showing. My actual voice tone IRL is apparently pretty deferential, which is likely a contributing factor to the online friction I experience. The same words said with my actual voice often goes over just fine. Having said that, I will note (in case you are not aware of it) that I appear to be the highest ranked openly female member of hn. I didn't get there by randomly being a bitch to #allmen. I have, in fact, gone to great lengths to put people at ease while continuing to participate anyway, in spite of being a woman.
mindcrime 10y ago
all I hear seems to be about how completely poisonous the company is. Stories about how everything at $COMPANY is just hunky-dory, with the employees sitting around holding hands and singing kumbaya by the campfire, etc. don't get reported. As the old saying goes "if it bleeds, it leads". Or to rephrase a bit "If it's negative, it leads". So of course you're going to hear more negative stories, and the news media is going to amplify whatever negative stories exist, because that generates more clicks. Note that I'm not defending Uber here... I don't know or much care about what's going on at Uber in general. I just wanted to make note of how little it may mean that we only hear negative stories about $X.
- Mz 10y ago
  I was also thinking of Stallman's analysis of the company, which I saw previously via HN. Having worked for a Fortune 500 company, some of what we know they do looks pretty damning to me, sexism or no sexism. https://stallman.org/uber.html https://stallman.org/uber.html

by Mz 10y ago

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

kposehn 10y ago

I understand your suspicion, but there is no agenda. That said, your point about a pattern of sorts is something that did give me pause. I did get permission and chose not to post her name for privacy' sake. I hope that allays your concerns somewhat :)

jetcata 10y ago
What is it you want to discuss then? What is your agenda here? To say "not all of Uber is bad"? Whilst that may be the case, there's no denying what actually happened and that there are significant organizational and cultural issues in the company.
- kposehn 10y ago
  Not really an agenda per se, more that I trust the HN community to think about solutions to problems at scale - such as culture at scale. I'd love input on how to manage cultures and performance in a massive global org, purely because I want to learn how this sort of thing can be avoided for all of us, not just Uber. How do you allow a fast, push-the-envelope culture without it getting out of hand? How can orgs that grow extremely rapidly handle these situations and work to not have them happen in the first place? So many questions, really. Trying to find a good place to start. Any thoughts?
  - jetcata 10y ago
    It's fairly simple - zero tolerance when it comes to harassment is a great place to start, offenders are sent packing. Leadership sets an example of what behavior is acceptable and what isn't and management enforces it. You also look out for culture fit when hiring - you don't just hire on technical competency, you also actively check that someone isn't an asshole, no matter how well they perform. Edit: The question is, what will you do with the above advice? Will you take action and make improvements? Because otherwise this discussion was for nothing.
  - yestoallthat 10y ago
    > Not really an agenda per se, more that I trust the HN community to think about solutions to problems at scale - such as culture at scale. Your initial comment doesn't even hint at that. It's just a random anecdote of someone who has a good time at Uber. So to me it seems like you're kind of making it up as you go along, and > I'd love input on I kind of read as "I want to change the subject away from my initial post, what it means and just how tone deaf that is", but I'll humour you anyway. > How do you allow a fast, push-the-envelope culture without it getting out of hand? Here's a radical thought: You can't, and healthy societies made up of healthy individuals wouldn't have a need for them either, since time is infinite, there is no need to hustle and rush. This is only required for grabbing bigger pieces of a limited pie for yourself, for man waging war on man - not for expanding the size of the pie for all, for competition with more sportsmanship and integrity. Empathy plays a big role here, people trapped in their own bodies and lifetimes consider this view childish and irrational - but that is mutual, I see many people as junkies who keep claiming they would be content if they just had some more, but really, it's just the monkey on their back talking, which seeks approval and materials from the outside, as a substitute for what they can't grow from the inside. You might have noticed by now, I don't even accept any of your premises. From where I'm sitting, you're asking how to rationalize bugs into features, and how to make more of them. > How can orgs that grow extremely rapidly handle these situations By caring less about money and more about personality and craftsmanship. That is, more about life than survival, and more about what to use resources for than how to grab them the fastest in the shortest amount of time. Then these "orgs" wouldn't need to blame the environment for not accommodating their defects. > Trying to find a good place to start. I can recommend Erich Fromm's "The Sane Society".
Mz 10y ago
I am glad to hear it gave you pause. As a woman who has a history of being influential and getting no credit for it whatsoever, which has real world negative impact on me, let me respectfully suggest that in the future you clearly state up front "posted with permission" and "name withheld to respect her privacy."

makeramen 10y ago

Please open your mind to the possibility of cognitive bias on your part. "All you hear" is unlikely to be an accurate generalization of the thousands of people who work at Uber. Until you overcome that bias, you are also part of the problem.

stagbeetle 10y ago

As a man, I have no idea what it's like to be a woman. Whenever I see women's problems, I want to understand, but most highly educated women argue in the same tone as your statement: highly condescending and cold. I won't bring politics in or specifically state what's wrong with your statement (because I fear for my ability to post within a reasonable amount of time), all I'll say is that people are not sympathetic to groups that are violent (in argument or action).

kposehn 10y ago
I think Mz was trying to edit to a better state but it's hard. Emotions can run high with these subjects :)
Mz 10y ago
The internet (by which I mean written text, like here) does not have voice tone. Your perception that my words are highly condescending and cold is your bias showing. My actual voice tone IRL is apparently pretty deferential, which is likely a contributing factor to the online friction I experience. The same words said with my actual voice often goes over just fine. Having said that, I will note (in case you are not aware of it) that I appear to be the highest ranked openly female member of hn. I didn't get there by randomly being a bitch to #allmen. I have, in fact, gone to great lengths to put people at ease while continuing to participate anyway, in spite of being a woman.

mindcrime 10y ago

all I hear seems to be about how completely poisonous the company is. Stories about how everything at $COMPANY is just hunky-dory, with the employees sitting around holding hands and singing kumbaya by the campfire, etc. don't get reported. As the old saying goes "if it bleeds, it leads". Or to rephrase a bit "If it's negative, it leads". So of course you're going to hear more negative stories, and the news media is going to amplify whatever negative stories exist, because that generates more clicks. Note that I'm not defending Uber here... I don't know or much care about what's going on at Uber in general. I just wanted to make note of how little it may mean that we only hear negative stories about $X.

Mz 10y ago
I was also thinking of Stallman's analysis of the company, which I saw previously via HN. Having worked for a Fortune 500 company, some of what we know they do looks pretty damning to me, sexism or no sexism. https://stallman.org/uber.html https://stallman.org/uber.html