9 ms·

Don't Talk to the Cops

124 points by jackowayed 16y ago

philwelch 16y ago
Aside from the legal advantages of not talking to the cops, it can also save you from a very aggravating conversation. I had the cops come by my apartment once. Apparently some kids were shooting airsoft guns into the neighbor's yard and endangering their kids, and they thought I knew something about it. I didn't, but the cops spent the whole time acting like they had a witness who saw me talking to the kids--and singled me out by my t-shirt and car--and were convinced I knew who they were. They even played good cop bad cop--one of them acted friendly and sympathetic, "I know you don't want to rat out your friends", complimenting me on my music (I had Iron Maiden playing on my Pandora at the time) while the other one was a total dick and kept saying "We know you're lying". They were expert at turning around everything I tried to say--I'd say "I'm sorry, I can't help you", and they'd say, "Why can't you help us? Why can't you just tell us what you know?" Then, of course, since they were rather intimidating they kept commenting that I was acting "avoidant" and implying that meant I knew something, when actually I was just intimidated by them. It didn't help that at the beginning they told me to keep my hands out of my pockets, which is an obvious security measure but also a power game. To this day, I still don't know if they got a tip on me from someone who saw me and misinterpreted the situation, or if they were sweeping the whole complex and bluffing their way into making everyone think they had a specific tip on them. Or maybe they were just practicing their interrogation skills. Nothing ever came of it, but I should have known from the outset to say nothing.
- voidpointer 16y ago
  But would your situation have been any better if you had just declined to speak to them? The amount of time wasted on your part could have been far greater (let alone expenses for an attorny)
  - philwelch 16y ago
    Like if I was arrested or something? If the cops/DA have any cause to arrest you, talking to them won't do anything to save you from it. They'll just use everything you say against you in addition to whatever they had on you to begin with. You can't dig yourself out of a hole with the police when your freedom is on the line. (Talking might help a little bit in traffic stops.) And if they might gain anything on you later on, you can't talk them out of it. The purpose of not talking to the police is to avoid giving them cause to arrest you when they don't already have it. If they already have cause to arrest you, you aren't talking your way out of it. It was plainly obvious in my situation that they weren't questioning me as a witness so much as they were playing word games, trying to trick me into incriminating myself. You can't actually get ahead with that. At best, you'll maintain your innocence and they'll get tired of playing games with you (which is what I did). You get the same outcome with less stress by shutting up. If you stand there talking, you might make a very costly mistake. Finally, public defenders are free. They're overworked and they suck in a lot of places, but where I lived at the time (and still live now) it's pretty rural so that's less of a problem. In small towns, in fact, a public defender is often just as good as the best lawyer money can buy locally. (If you're in serious trouble you hire a lawyer from the nearest big city, of course.)
    - stretchwithme 16y ago
      yes, as the video makes clear, you can't compel the police to testify to anything you said, but they can use it all against you. its hearsay when you want to use and the unassailable truth when its used against you.
baddox 16y ago
The first guy is by far the most skilled and rehearsed public speaker I have ever seen in my entire life.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
hga 16y ago
Also highly recommended, since at times there's more to all this than just not talking when you don't have to: http://www.amazon.com/Arrest-Proof-Yourself-Ex-Cop-Reveals-Arrested/dp/1556526377 http://www.amazon.com/Arrest-Proof-Yourself-Ex-Cop-Reveals-A...
DenisM 16y ago
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=219758 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=219758
Luc 16y ago
I'd love to see the same kind of advice for other countries.
- ugh 16y ago
  I have heard German lawyers recommending the same thing. I suspect this might be true for any country in which you have the right to remain silent.
- dotBen 16y ago
  My advice for the UK is to generally be cooperative with the police because unlike the US are not allowed to lie nor ask you to do anything outside of your rights. EG, if they start searching your car when they pull you over, and they don't have a warrant or you are not under arrest then the evidence collected is not admissible in court. However the UK doesn't quite have a total "right to remain silent" law anymore, the current miranda warning is "You do not have to say anything, but it may harm your defense if you do not mention, when questioned, something which you later rely on in court." and as such taking the tact of not saying anything at all can actually get an innocent person into some legal difficulties if simply giving reasonable facts about your innocence would have helped the situation at the time of quesitoning.
  - ugh 16y ago
    Isn’t that also the case in the US? Evidence attained illegally is admissible in court in Germany, I don’t think it is in the US. I don’t know how that changes whether you should talk or not, though.
    - dotBen 16y ago
      The difference is this... A suspect is stopped by the police while driving his car. During the discusion with the suspect the police officer says "I'm just going to take a look in the vehicle if that is ok?" and with the suspect saying nothing (ie not stopping him) the police officer finds something illegal in the car. In the US this would be admissible in court because the suspect waived his rights, in the UK I believe it would not be admissible because you cannot waiver your rights.
mclin 16y ago
I watched these a while ago, and based on what the second guy (the cop) has to say about him going to bat for a particularly nice iraq vet, while lying to and manipulating 'hood rats', I inferred the rule is don't talk to the cops if you're poor/black.
- randallsquared 16y ago
  Indeed. I'm a white guy, and I've talked to the police repeatedly, back when I lived in the poor parts of various towns. As far as I know, nothing I've ever said to any police has been used against me. Of course, I assume I've hardly ever been a suspect, so maybe that's part of it, but the difficulty with all of this "don't talk to the police" is that we don't have any statistics on what percentage of people who talk to the police never even get arrested. It's probably quite true that it will be difficult for the courts to convict you of anything if you don't talk to the police. However, it seems like there'd be a large risk of attracting a lot more attention than you otherwise would have, should you conspicuously refuse to talk to the police. Being arrested and having to endure a trial is, itself, a fairly large imposition on someone's liberty and time, and it's hard to know how many people would have been looked at far more closely had they insisted on saying nothing.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  Very interesting reading on that subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driving_While_Black http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driving_While_Black
stretchwithme 16y ago
You have me convinced. 25% of those later exonerated by DNA evidence actually confessed to the crime? crazy.
- rdtsc 16y ago
  Can't up-vote that enough. I would guess in a lot of those situations cops invited those people to the station "just to talk".
  - stretchwithme 16y ago
    the founders knew what they were doing.
btmorex 16y ago
This really gets driven home when you watch a show like "The First 48" and realize that a lot of murder cases are basically strong circumstantial evidence and a confession. Take out the confession and getting a conviction is really, really hard. With it though, the chances are very good.
- niekmaas 16y ago
  Yes, on a episode I watched a couple of days ago the cop first tells the camera "we have no proper evidence to take this suspect to court. None whatsoever". He than talks to tge suspect and says "some people told me I should talk to you about this. Tell me what happened.." And the guy confesses everything. It went to a case in which they had no openings at all to a case-closed conviction...
w1ntermute 16y ago
It's something you should share with your children (grown or not). I have a particular interest in this subject because of "zero tolerance" policies in schools. Too often, children defer to authority -- as they've been taught by ...uh... the authorities -- and when the principal says "Write out what happened and sign it," that resulting confession is often given to the police. Cops certainly can't demand that a suspect write a confession without first advising the suspect of their rights ("You have the right to remain silent..."), but school officials -- typically government agents in their own right -- don't seem to have a problem obtaining confessions for use against their own students, even without bringing in their parents first (let alone a lawyer). Kids (and adults!) often don't understand that they are sealing their own fate when they comply with such outrageous demands. The kids don't have a choice in this situation, do they? From what I remember, the Supreme Court has ruled that students in public schools don't have constitutional rights. If the school wants to expel the student for not talking, they can do so.
- katanil 16y ago
  Actually, the SCOTUS has ruled the opposite. In the case Tinker vs. Des Moines, the court ruled that the students who were wearing arm-bands as a protest against the Vietnam War enjoyed first-amendment protection and discipline from the school was illegal. The court has been much more lenient on searches -- see New Jersey v T. L. O. However, you still need at least some reasonable ground for a search to be legal. As for interrogations, the supreme court has yet to rule on it. There is, however, a case brewing: http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2010/0405/Supreme-Court-lets-stand-ruling-in-self-incrimination-case http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2010/0405/Supreme-Court.... The fact that it's written in such a fashion as to be assumed that students have Fifth Amendment rights and the court cases are arguing over a technicality of pre-trial processing would seem to imply that students don't shed that right, either. Specifically: "A juvenile court judge determined that Paul did not understand that he had a right to remain silent and a right to have a lawyer and his parents present for the entire interrogation. The judge ruled that police coerced Paul’s confession."
  - scott_s 16y ago
    Public school students don't have full first amendment rights. If the speech interferes with the school's ability to conduct classes, the administration can stop it. I don't know the case name, but this was established in a case with a high school principal censoring the school newspaper.
bonsaitree 16y ago
My route standard response to law enforcement queries: "I'm sorry Mr./Mrs/Sargent/Lt X, but I don't talk to police on material matters without counsel present."
- baddox 16y ago
  A related question: apart from a subpoena in court, are you required to talk to police about anything even with counsel present?
  - jrockway 16y ago
    You may have to say your name if asked. Anything else, nope. You might have to testify against yourself in court, without Fifth Amendment protection, if you're given immunity for whatever you are about to testify to. (This is interesting, because federal courts can use the testimony from state proceedings against you, but the state can't give you federal immunity. Double jeopardy does not apply because the state and federal courts are different. Pretty sure that's not what the framers meant when they were writing the Tenth Amendment...)
    - Retric 16y ago
      I would argue from an information theory perspective that ever speaking about anything may be self incriminating for any crime you have ever commuted. Also, I am fairly positive federal immunity does not protect you vs the hague. So you could still be convicted of say war crimes based on testimony even if you had immunity. Unfortunately, the law does not agree with me.
      - jrockway 16y ago
        Yeah. If you've killed two million children, or something, you might want to just take the contempt sentence. Though there is probably other evidence of your guilt...
  - bonsaitree 16y ago
    Depending on the state and whether or not the inquiry comes from local or federal officials, you MAY be required to give your full legal name and full address of your legal primary residence. That's it. Ever since the Hiibel ruling http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiibel_v._Sixth_Judicial_District_Court_of_Nevada http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiibel_v._Sixth_Judicial_Distri..., the states have adopted a hodgepodge of differing identity query standards.
dotBen 16y ago
I've seen these two videos a long time ago and they are GREAT advice. It's actually scary the kind of stuff the cop says he has done and other cops will do to you during questioning. In the UK, where I'm originally from, the police are not allowed to lie or ask you to do anything outside of your rights and so it is total wake up call for anyone who is not used to the way the police work here in the US. This video is also useful, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDJrQBwJpqk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDJrQBwJpqk However, a friend who I talked to about this did make a counter perspective... that sometimes it is worth talking to the cops in the right circumstances. For example, if you are pulled over cos you just ran a stop sign and you have nothing illegal on you/in the car/etc then it is better just to talk to the cop and get the ticket dealt with. If you start playing the 'not going to say anything' and 'no you can't look in the car' then you are opening yourself up for a long painful experience and potentially arrest if they decide to fuck back with you and they can pin some suspicion for something on you (eg you are driving through an area that happens to be associated with drug sale, you have a LeatherMan tool you and the cop can say the knife was being carried for other intent, etc) Cops are naturally authoritarian and can choose to make your life hell if they think you are trying to be superior or above them.
- branden 16y ago
  If everyone who is innocent cedes their rights then yeah, asserting your rights will make you look suspicious. So never cede your rights to a cop under any circumstances. That's too important a principle to sacrifice for a more convenient traffic stop.
  - rdtsc 16y ago
    In a certain way it is already too late. Cops can pin random 'catch all' charges on your because the law allows them, some are vengeful and power hungry, they can legally lie to you, it is seems the system is already stacked up against you. In other words, if you ran stop sign, do you want to be a "constitutional martyr" and expose yourself to a cop's rage? Do you want to be detained for a day when you have a family and a job to go to, do you want your car towed, do you want random charges that are hard to defend slapped on you? Even if all charges are cleared by a judge, the amount of effort, time and money spent is too much for most people to handle. They'd rather fly under the radar, hopefully, the cops will catch the next guy...
baddox 16y ago
I'd like to see a comprehensive breakdown of exactly what you should do in real situations when approached by cops. For example, do you literally utter no words and just stare at them, or do you keep repeating "I'd rather not answer that." If the cops make a false claim, such as "we can arrest you for interfering with a police investigation if you don't answer," should you call them on the lie or what? Also a more specific breakdown by state would be great (e.g. do I have to carry/show ID while walking/driving/in my home. I've seen some rather cheesy video dramatizations (I think from the ACLU) of what to do in a traffic stop, but a nice comprehensive document would be the best.
- mootothemax 16y ago
  "No comment" all the way. I used to work with several ex-Policemen (UK), and their advice was exactly the same: "no comment." One thing I stupidly didn't ask at the time though was whether there was potential for badness if you expanded on your answer, e.g. "I don't want to comment without my solicitor being present." versus "No comment." Anyone have any ideas?
  - ErrantX 16y ago
    > e.g. "I don't want to comment without my solicitor being present." versus "No comment." Anyone have any ideas? Yes. My Boss, an ex-copper, says that you should always do the former and never the latter. Also, be polite and restrained. Respond to small talk. Be honest. If you clam up, stay silent, and repeat no comment they will treat that as mildly suspicious.
    - dotBen 16y ago
      One issue with this is that if you pull out the "I don't wish to comment without my solicitor being present" line as soon as the cop starts talking to you then they can just detain you (ie not arrest you) and take you to the police station to give you the opportunity to get your legal counsel present so they can continue. Saying that you won't comment without legal counsel doesn't mean the police officer is going to go away. It just means the s/he will have to make a judgement call on letting you go or taking you in for questioning (detainment, not arrest) and so you are risking a loss of liberty if that occurs.
edj 16y ago
Excellent 45 minute ACLU documentary on how to interact with police in three situations: traffic stop, in your house, and on foot. BUSTED: The Citizen's Guide to Surviving Police Encounters http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA tldr: -say as little as possible. -be courteous and don't argue or complain. -memorize the phrase "I do not consent to any searches." -do not invite police in your house.
- blinks 16y ago
  > do not invite police into your house. Sorry, just made me laugh: can they cross running water? Do they reflect in mirrors? The TL;DR seems like good advice in general.
AgileCyborg 16y ago
I see the tide shifting from an unrelenting awe of law enforcement authority to a far more astute and cautious state that regards police with a guarded circumspection. This is actually a healthy thing for those interested in American liberty. All children should also be trained exactly opposite of what law enforcement teaches in the public schools. My kids talk to me first- NOT the cops. Also, something not touched on in very many places is how close to get to law enforcement when they are out of uniform. My suggestion: arms length always, unless they are a close family member or you are as boring as a bag of green beans.
- rdtsc 16y ago
  I think that is not uncorrelated with the fact that now more people have access to non-traditional media like youtube, web forums, other online communities, where police brutality videos, stories about abuse of power,and injustice can spread. Americans traditional media will not turn against cops and will "appropriately" filter stories to make the system of government look good. In other words, I think cops have always acted this way, it is just that the general public have been mis-informed.
ErrantX 16y ago
I work with cops, for an ex-cop and have been arrested a couple of times for "kicks" or through false accusation. So this is my experience... Generally the idea of not saying anything without a lawyer is sensible and advised. But I think you have to be pragmatic about it. For example we were stopped entering a country once (by the police not border guards) and asked a few fairly routine questions about drug importation. I answered them because there seemed little danger and got released with an apology in about 5 minutes (probably even less - they just pulled us to one side into little alcoves). But my friend clammed up and asked for a lawyer, "no comment" etc, had to wait about 40 minutes for one to turn up, got told to just answer the questions and was there answering them for about another 20m. Pointless... You have to remember that for the most part cops are people (I need to remember that myself sometimes because they can be the most infuriating techno-phobes too :P) and usually aren't out to get us. I advise - if you're worried, don't answer questions, but stay polite and engage in small talk if you feel safe (i.e. they aren't leading you somewhere with it). If you're confident just answer the questions and be helpful - it saves everyone time.
evo_9 16y ago
The thing with this kind of advice is while it's important to realize that nothing good can come from talking to a cop, the circumstances of the situation has to be factored in. Case in point, a police officer approaches you about a murder investigation, then yes this is great advice. If you are pulled over for rolling through a 4 way stop, yeah clamming up just isn't warranted and likely to cause you more trouble than it's worth.
- philwelch 16y ago
  At traffic stops, behaving very friendly and polite and sober and knowing exactly where your license, registration, and proof of insurance are goes a long way, even if you play dumb about why you were pulled over. Sometimes there is no reason. They might ask you what you're out for, but that's just to make conversation so they can size you up and it won't lead to anything (unless you say something stupid like "buying some weed").
snewe 16y ago
YouTube link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik&feature=player_embedded http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik&feature=playe...
fierarul 16y ago
This looks strangely familiar to the memes I saw on Reddit. You know, the stuff I was kinda delighted to see Hacker New was missing.
tzs 16y ago
I wonder if the "never talk to a cop" people will feel the same way if one of their kids is missing, and all the people who saw the abduction refuse to speak without getting lawyers?
callmeed 16y ago
Curious—am I allowed to video/audiotape a conversation with law enforcement? I was recently the passenger in a car pulled over by the police. My iPhone rang with a text message and the cop abruptly asked "are you recording me!?" I wasn't ... but so what if I was? If cops want to talk to me, can I record the conversation?
- tptacek 16y ago
  Be very, very careful. In several states, like my home state Illinois, two-party consent statutes allow you to be charged with a felony for recording on-duty officers; in others, recording on-duty officers is an overt and specific felony. Some journalism student just got pegged with a felony charge, and failed in his attempt to get the charged dismissed, because he surruptitiously recorded an on-duty cop here. Not worth it.
  - superkarn 16y ago
    But you can still ask to record it right? And if for some reason the cop OKs it, then it should be all good?
    - tptacek 16y ago
      In Illinois, I think you're OK if the cop consents (this is kind of an academic point, since they won't consent). But there are other states where, if I understand the statute correctly, consent isn't relevant.
  - billswift 16y ago
    As I understand it that is usually (I don't know specifically about IL) about surreptitious recording. If the other party (the cop) is informed and continues the interaction, you are covered. As I have written before, the 2-party consent rules are specifically for the benefit of low-lifes. Nothing prevents one party reporting what transpired in a conversation, all the anti-recording laws do is to allow liars to get away with it by not preserving an objective record.
tptacek 16y ago
Like everything else, when and how much to talk to the police is a judgement call. I am quite possibly the world's least legal driver; I've spent more of my adult license with a suspended license than a legitimate one. Not only that, but I drive around with expired plates. In one case, very, very expired plates. From a different state. And I drive a pretty consistent 10MPH over the limit. And yet I very rarely get tickets. Because I am (I think) good at not antagonizing cops. For instance, here is a trick that works very reliably for me: when driving on the highway, if I see a cruiser pull out onto the road from a trap or the median, I pull over preemptively --- before the lights come on. They say, "why'd you pull over", I say "I figure you pulled out like that because I did something wrong", and they say "drive slower next time". Similarly: dome light on, car engine off, hands on the wheel, window (mostly) down. "Got any weapons in the car"? That's a question I'm happy to answer. I think the thing people don't realize is that most people are total assholes to police officers. Just being civil puts you in the top 10th percentile of their clientele. I'd rather be civil (and, for my neighborhood cops, helpful) than self-righteous. Another thing, after reading the ACLU guides, watching the videos, and reading the books: you have rights, but you have no authority over the police. You usually have a constitutional right to be free from search without probable cause. But that does not mean you can prevent an unreasonable search; it merely means you're likely to win a case that hinges on evidence obtained from that search. If you're an iota less than civil to a cop who's having a bad day, he'll arrest you. That's pretty much the ballgame. Your day is ruined. Find a friendly, polite, short way to avoid discussing incriminating topics with the police. Say, "sorry, I don't consent to searches" and, if pressed, "I'm really sorry, this is just a thing with me, but I'm not going to consent to a search; is there anything else I can do to help?". But do not say "My life might hang in the balance if I allow you to search me". You're just going to get arrested, and then immediately searched anyways. Finally: none of these things apply near the border. You have essentially no rights near the border.

124 points by jackowayed 16y ago

Aside from the legal advantages of not talking to the cops, it can also save you from a very aggravating conversation. I had the cops come by my apartment once. Apparently some kids were shooting airsoft guns into the neighbor's yard and endangering their kids, and they thought I knew something about it. I didn't, but the cops spent the whole time acting like they had a witness who saw me talking to the kids--and singled me out by my t-shirt and car--and were convinced I knew who they were. They even played good cop bad cop--one of them acted friendly and sympathetic, "I know you don't want to rat out your friends", complimenting me on my music (I had Iron Maiden playing on my Pandora at the time) while the other one was a total dick and kept saying "We know you're lying". They were expert at turning around everything I tried to say--I'd say "I'm sorry, I can't help you", and they'd say, "Why can't you help us? Why can't you just tell us what you know?" Then, of course, since they were rather intimidating they kept commenting that I was acting "avoidant" and implying that meant I knew something, when actually I was just intimidated by them. It didn't help that at the beginning they told me to keep my hands out of my pockets, which is an obvious security measure but also a power game. To this day, I still don't know if they got a tip on me from someone who saw me and misinterpreted the situation, or if they were sweeping the whole complex and bluffing their way into making everyone think they had a specific tip on them. Or maybe they were just practicing their interrogation skills. Nothing ever came of it, but I should have known from the outset to say nothing.

voidpointer 16y ago
But would your situation have been any better if you had just declined to speak to them? The amount of time wasted on your part could have been far greater (let alone expenses for an attorny)
- philwelch 16y ago
  Like if I was arrested or something? If the cops/DA have any cause to arrest you, talking to them won't do anything to save you from it. They'll just use everything you say against you in addition to whatever they had on you to begin with. You can't dig yourself out of a hole with the police when your freedom is on the line. (Talking might help a little bit in traffic stops.) And if they might gain anything on you later on, you can't talk them out of it. The purpose of not talking to the police is to avoid giving them cause to arrest you when they don't already have it. If they already have cause to arrest you, you aren't talking your way out of it. It was plainly obvious in my situation that they weren't questioning me as a witness so much as they were playing word games, trying to trick me into incriminating myself. You can't actually get ahead with that. At best, you'll maintain your innocence and they'll get tired of playing games with you (which is what I did). You get the same outcome with less stress by shutting up. If you stand there talking, you might make a very costly mistake. Finally, public defenders are free. They're overworked and they suck in a lot of places, but where I lived at the time (and still live now) it's pretty rural so that's less of a problem. In small towns, in fact, a public defender is often just as good as the best lawyer money can buy locally. (If you're in serious trouble you hire a lawyer from the nearest big city, of course.)
  - stretchwithme 16y ago
    yes, as the video makes clear, you can't compel the police to testify to anything you said, but they can use it all against you. its hearsay when you want to use and the unassailable truth when its used against you.

baddox 16y ago

The first guy is by far the most skilled and rehearsed public speaker I have ever seen in my entire life.

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]

hga 16y ago

Also highly recommended, since at times there's more to all this than just not talking when you don't have to: http://www.amazon.com/Arrest-Proof-Yourself-Ex-Cop-Reveals-Arrested/dp/1556526377 http://www.amazon.com/Arrest-Proof-Yourself-Ex-Cop-Reveals-A...

DenisM 16y ago

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=219758 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=219758

Luc 16y ago

I'd love to see the same kind of advice for other countries.

ugh 16y ago
I have heard German lawyers recommending the same thing. I suspect this might be true for any country in which you have the right to remain silent.
dotBen 16y ago
My advice for the UK is to generally be cooperative with the police because unlike the US are not allowed to lie nor ask you to do anything outside of your rights. EG, if they start searching your car when they pull you over, and they don't have a warrant or you are not under arrest then the evidence collected is not admissible in court. However the UK doesn't quite have a total "right to remain silent" law anymore, the current miranda warning is "You do not have to say anything, but it may harm your defense if you do not mention, when questioned, something which you later rely on in court." and as such taking the tact of not saying anything at all can actually get an innocent person into some legal difficulties if simply giving reasonable facts about your innocence would have helped the situation at the time of quesitoning.
- ugh 16y ago
  Isn’t that also the case in the US? Evidence attained illegally is admissible in court in Germany, I don’t think it is in the US. I don’t know how that changes whether you should talk or not, though.
  - dotBen 16y ago
    The difference is this... A suspect is stopped by the police while driving his car. During the discusion with the suspect the police officer says "I'm just going to take a look in the vehicle if that is ok?" and with the suspect saying nothing (ie not stopping him) the police officer finds something illegal in the car. In the US this would be admissible in court because the suspect waived his rights, in the UK I believe it would not be admissible because you cannot waiver your rights.

mclin 16y ago

I watched these a while ago, and based on what the second guy (the cop) has to say about him going to bat for a particularly nice iraq vet, while lying to and manipulating 'hood rats', I inferred the rule is don't talk to the cops if you're poor/black.

randallsquared 16y ago
Indeed. I'm a white guy, and I've talked to the police repeatedly, back when I lived in the poor parts of various towns. As far as I know, nothing I've ever said to any police has been used against me. Of course, I assume I've hardly ever been a suspect, so maybe that's part of it, but the difficulty with all of this "don't talk to the police" is that we don't have any statistics on what percentage of people who talk to the police never even get arrested. It's probably quite true that it will be difficult for the courts to convict you of anything if you don't talk to the police. However, it seems like there'd be a large risk of attracting a lot more attention than you otherwise would have, should you conspicuously refuse to talk to the police. Being arrested and having to endure a trial is, itself, a fairly large imposition on someone's liberty and time, and it's hard to know how many people would have been looked at far more closely had they insisted on saying nothing.
jacquesm 16y ago
Very interesting reading on that subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driving_While_Black http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driving_While_Black

stretchwithme 16y ago

You have me convinced. 25% of those later exonerated by DNA evidence actually confessed to the crime? crazy.

rdtsc 16y ago
Can't up-vote that enough. I would guess in a lot of those situations cops invited those people to the station "just to talk".
- stretchwithme 16y ago
  the founders knew what they were doing.

btmorex 16y ago

This really gets driven home when you watch a show like "The First 48" and realize that a lot of murder cases are basically strong circumstantial evidence and a confession. Take out the confession and getting a conviction is really, really hard. With it though, the chances are very good.

niekmaas 16y ago
Yes, on a episode I watched a couple of days ago the cop first tells the camera "we have no proper evidence to take this suspect to court. None whatsoever". He than talks to tge suspect and says "some people told me I should talk to you about this. Tell me what happened.." And the guy confesses everything. It went to a case in which they had no openings at all to a case-closed conviction...

w1ntermute 16y ago

It's something you should share with your children (grown or not). I have a particular interest in this subject because of "zero tolerance" policies in schools. Too often, children defer to authority -- as they've been taught by ...uh... the authorities -- and when the principal says "Write out what happened and sign it," that resulting confession is often given to the police. Cops certainly can't demand that a suspect write a confession without first advising the suspect of their rights ("You have the right to remain silent..."), but school officials -- typically government agents in their own right -- don't seem to have a problem obtaining confessions for use against their own students, even without bringing in their parents first (let alone a lawyer). Kids (and adults!) often don't understand that they are sealing their own fate when they comply with such outrageous demands. The kids don't have a choice in this situation, do they? From what I remember, the Supreme Court has ruled that students in public schools don't have constitutional rights. If the school wants to expel the student for not talking, they can do so.

katanil 16y ago
Actually, the SCOTUS has ruled the opposite. In the case Tinker vs. Des Moines, the court ruled that the students who were wearing arm-bands as a protest against the Vietnam War enjoyed first-amendment protection and discipline from the school was illegal. The court has been much more lenient on searches -- see New Jersey v T. L. O. However, you still need at least some reasonable ground for a search to be legal. As for interrogations, the supreme court has yet to rule on it. There is, however, a case brewing: http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2010/0405/Supreme-Court-lets-stand-ruling-in-self-incrimination-case http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2010/0405/Supreme-Court.... The fact that it's written in such a fashion as to be assumed that students have Fifth Amendment rights and the court cases are arguing over a technicality of pre-trial processing would seem to imply that students don't shed that right, either. Specifically: "A juvenile court judge determined that Paul did not understand that he had a right to remain silent and a right to have a lawyer and his parents present for the entire interrogation. The judge ruled that police coerced Paul’s confession."
- scott_s 16y ago
  Public school students don't have full first amendment rights. If the speech interferes with the school's ability to conduct classes, the administration can stop it. I don't know the case name, but this was established in a case with a high school principal censoring the school newspaper.

bonsaitree 16y ago

My route standard response to law enforcement queries: "I'm sorry Mr./Mrs/Sargent/Lt X, but I don't talk to police on material matters without counsel present."

baddox 16y ago
A related question: apart from a subpoena in court, are you required to talk to police about anything even with counsel present?
- jrockway 16y ago
  You may have to say your name if asked. Anything else, nope. You might have to testify against yourself in court, without Fifth Amendment protection, if you're given immunity for whatever you are about to testify to. (This is interesting, because federal courts can use the testimony from state proceedings against you, but the state can't give you federal immunity. Double jeopardy does not apply because the state and federal courts are different. Pretty sure that's not what the framers meant when they were writing the Tenth Amendment...)
  - Retric 16y ago
    I would argue from an information theory perspective that ever speaking about anything may be self incriminating for any crime you have ever commuted. Also, I am fairly positive federal immunity does not protect you vs the hague. So you could still be convicted of say war crimes based on testimony even if you had immunity. Unfortunately, the law does not agree with me.
    - jrockway 16y ago
      Yeah. If you've killed two million children, or something, you might want to just take the contempt sentence. Though there is probably other evidence of your guilt...
- bonsaitree 16y ago
  Depending on the state and whether or not the inquiry comes from local or federal officials, you MAY be required to give your full legal name and full address of your legal primary residence. That's it. Ever since the Hiibel ruling http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiibel_v._Sixth_Judicial_District_Court_of_Nevada http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiibel_v._Sixth_Judicial_Distri..., the states have adopted a hodgepodge of differing identity query standards.

dotBen 16y ago

I've seen these two videos a long time ago and they are GREAT advice. It's actually scary the kind of stuff the cop says he has done and other cops will do to you during questioning. In the UK, where I'm originally from, the police are not allowed to lie or ask you to do anything outside of your rights and so it is total wake up call for anyone who is not used to the way the police work here in the US. This video is also useful, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDJrQBwJpqk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDJrQBwJpqk However, a friend who I talked to about this did make a counter perspective... that sometimes it is worth talking to the cops in the right circumstances. For example, if you are pulled over cos you just ran a stop sign and you have nothing illegal on you/in the car/etc then it is better just to talk to the cop and get the ticket dealt with. If you start playing the 'not going to say anything' and 'no you can't look in the car' then you are opening yourself up for a long painful experience and potentially arrest if they decide to fuck back with you and they can pin some suspicion for something on you (eg you are driving through an area that happens to be associated with drug sale, you have a LeatherMan tool you and the cop can say the knife was being carried for other intent, etc) Cops are naturally authoritarian and can choose to make your life hell if they think you are trying to be superior or above them.

branden 16y ago
If everyone who is innocent cedes their rights then yeah, asserting your rights will make you look suspicious. So never cede your rights to a cop under any circumstances. That's too important a principle to sacrifice for a more convenient traffic stop.
- rdtsc 16y ago
  In a certain way it is already too late. Cops can pin random 'catch all' charges on your because the law allows them, some are vengeful and power hungry, they can legally lie to you, it is seems the system is already stacked up against you. In other words, if you ran stop sign, do you want to be a "constitutional martyr" and expose yourself to a cop's rage? Do you want to be detained for a day when you have a family and a job to go to, do you want your car towed, do you want random charges that are hard to defend slapped on you? Even if all charges are cleared by a judge, the amount of effort, time and money spent is too much for most people to handle. They'd rather fly under the radar, hopefully, the cops will catch the next guy...

baddox 16y ago

I'd like to see a comprehensive breakdown of exactly what you should do in real situations when approached by cops. For example, do you literally utter no words and just stare at them, or do you keep repeating "I'd rather not answer that." If the cops make a false claim, such as "we can arrest you for interfering with a police investigation if you don't answer," should you call them on the lie or what? Also a more specific breakdown by state would be great (e.g. do I have to carry/show ID while walking/driving/in my home. I've seen some rather cheesy video dramatizations (I think from the ACLU) of what to do in a traffic stop, but a nice comprehensive document would be the best.

mootothemax 16y ago
"No comment" all the way. I used to work with several ex-Policemen (UK), and their advice was exactly the same: "no comment." One thing I stupidly didn't ask at the time though was whether there was potential for badness if you expanded on your answer, e.g. "I don't want to comment without my solicitor being present." versus "No comment." Anyone have any ideas?
- ErrantX 16y ago
  > e.g. "I don't want to comment without my solicitor being present." versus "No comment." Anyone have any ideas? Yes. My Boss, an ex-copper, says that you should always do the former and never the latter. Also, be polite and restrained. Respond to small talk. Be honest. If you clam up, stay silent, and repeat no comment they will treat that as mildly suspicious.
  - dotBen 16y ago
    One issue with this is that if you pull out the "I don't wish to comment without my solicitor being present" line as soon as the cop starts talking to you then they can just detain you (ie not arrest you) and take you to the police station to give you the opportunity to get your legal counsel present so they can continue. Saying that you won't comment without legal counsel doesn't mean the police officer is going to go away. It just means the s/he will have to make a judgement call on letting you go or taking you in for questioning (detainment, not arrest) and so you are risking a loss of liberty if that occurs.

edj 16y ago

Excellent 45 minute ACLU documentary on how to interact with police in three situations: traffic stop, in your house, and on foot. BUSTED: The Citizen's Guide to Surviving Police Encounters http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA tldr: -say as little as possible. -be courteous and don't argue or complain. -memorize the phrase "I do not consent to any searches." -do not invite police in your house.

blinks 16y ago
> do not invite police into your house. Sorry, just made me laugh: can they cross running water? Do they reflect in mirrors? The TL;DR seems like good advice in general.

AgileCyborg 16y ago

I see the tide shifting from an unrelenting awe of law enforcement authority to a far more astute and cautious state that regards police with a guarded circumspection. This is actually a healthy thing for those interested in American liberty. All children should also be trained exactly opposite of what law enforcement teaches in the public schools. My kids talk to me first- NOT the cops. Also, something not touched on in very many places is how close to get to law enforcement when they are out of uniform. My suggestion: arms length always, unless they are a close family member or you are as boring as a bag of green beans.

rdtsc 16y ago
I think that is not uncorrelated with the fact that now more people have access to non-traditional media like youtube, web forums, other online communities, where police brutality videos, stories about abuse of power,and injustice can spread. Americans traditional media will not turn against cops and will "appropriately" filter stories to make the system of government look good. In other words, I think cops have always acted this way, it is just that the general public have been mis-informed.

ErrantX 16y ago

I work with cops, for an ex-cop and have been arrested a couple of times for "kicks" or through false accusation. So this is my experience... Generally the idea of not saying anything without a lawyer is sensible and advised. But I think you have to be pragmatic about it. For example we were stopped entering a country once (by the police not border guards) and asked a few fairly routine questions about drug importation. I answered them because there seemed little danger and got released with an apology in about 5 minutes (probably even less - they just pulled us to one side into little alcoves). But my friend clammed up and asked for a lawyer, "no comment" etc, had to wait about 40 minutes for one to turn up, got told to just answer the questions and was there answering them for about another 20m. Pointless... You have to remember that for the most part cops are people (I need to remember that myself sometimes because they can be the most infuriating techno-phobes too :P) and usually aren't out to get us. I advise - if you're worried, don't answer questions, but stay polite and engage in small talk if you feel safe (i.e. they aren't leading you somewhere with it). If you're confident just answer the questions and be helpful - it saves everyone time.

evo_9 16y ago

The thing with this kind of advice is while it's important to realize that nothing good can come from talking to a cop, the circumstances of the situation has to be factored in. Case in point, a police officer approaches you about a murder investigation, then yes this is great advice. If you are pulled over for rolling through a 4 way stop, yeah clamming up just isn't warranted and likely to cause you more trouble than it's worth.

philwelch 16y ago
At traffic stops, behaving very friendly and polite and sober and knowing exactly where your license, registration, and proof of insurance are goes a long way, even if you play dumb about why you were pulled over. Sometimes there is no reason. They might ask you what you're out for, but that's just to make conversation so they can size you up and it won't lead to anything (unless you say something stupid like "buying some weed").

snewe 16y ago

YouTube link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik&feature=player_embedded http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik&feature=playe...

fierarul 16y ago

This looks strangely familiar to the memes I saw on Reddit. You know, the stuff I was kinda delighted to see Hacker New was missing.

tzs 16y ago

I wonder if the "never talk to a cop" people will feel the same way if one of their kids is missing, and all the people who saw the abduction refuse to speak without getting lawyers?

callmeed 16y ago

Curious—am I allowed to video/audiotape a conversation with law enforcement? I was recently the passenger in a car pulled over by the police. My iPhone rang with a text message and the cop abruptly asked "are you recording me!?" I wasn't ... but so what if I was? If cops want to talk to me, can I record the conversation?

tptacek 16y ago
Be very, very careful. In several states, like my home state Illinois, two-party consent statutes allow you to be charged with a felony for recording on-duty officers; in others, recording on-duty officers is an overt and specific felony. Some journalism student just got pegged with a felony charge, and failed in his attempt to get the charged dismissed, because he surruptitiously recorded an on-duty cop here. Not worth it.
- superkarn 16y ago
  But you can still ask to record it right? And if for some reason the cop OKs it, then it should be all good?
  - tptacek 16y ago
    In Illinois, I think you're OK if the cop consents (this is kind of an academic point, since they won't consent). But there are other states where, if I understand the statute correctly, consent isn't relevant.
- billswift 16y ago
  As I understand it that is usually (I don't know specifically about IL) about surreptitious recording. If the other party (the cop) is informed and continues the interaction, you are covered. As I have written before, the 2-party consent rules are specifically for the benefit of low-lifes. Nothing prevents one party reporting what transpired in a conversation, all the anti-recording laws do is to allow liars to get away with it by not preserving an objective record.

tptacek 16y ago

Like everything else, when and how much to talk to the police is a judgement call. I am quite possibly the world's least legal driver; I've spent more of my adult license with a suspended license than a legitimate one. Not only that, but I drive around with expired plates. In one case, very, very expired plates. From a different state. And I drive a pretty consistent 10MPH over the limit. And yet I very rarely get tickets. Because I am (I think) good at not antagonizing cops. For instance, here is a trick that works very reliably for me: when driving on the highway, if I see a cruiser pull out onto the road from a trap or the median, I pull over preemptively --- before the lights come on. They say, "why'd you pull over", I say "I figure you pulled out like that because I did something wrong", and they say "drive slower next time". Similarly: dome light on, car engine off, hands on the wheel, window (mostly) down. "Got any weapons in the car"? That's a question I'm happy to answer. I think the thing people don't realize is that most people are total assholes to police officers. Just being civil puts you in the top 10th percentile of their clientele. I'd rather be civil (and, for my neighborhood cops, helpful) than self-righteous. Another thing, after reading the ACLU guides, watching the videos, and reading the books: you have rights, but you have no authority over the police. You usually have a constitutional right to be free from search without probable cause. But that does not mean you can prevent an unreasonable search; it merely means you're likely to win a case that hinges on evidence obtained from that search. If you're an iota less than civil to a cop who's having a bad day, he'll arrest you. That's pretty much the ballgame. Your day is ruined. Find a friendly, polite, short way to avoid discussing incriminating topics with the police. Say, "sorry, I don't consent to searches" and, if pressed, "I'm really sorry, this is just a thing with me, but I'm not going to consent to a search; is there anything else I can do to help?". But do not say "My life might hang in the balance if I allow you to search me". You're just going to get arrested, and then immediately searched anyways. Finally: none of these things apply near the border. You have essentially no rights near the border.