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Also, we need to look in the mirror. If we think of the people who were Nazis as somehow alien creatures, not ordinary people like us, we overlook a central poi

Also, we need to look in the mirror. If we think of the people who were Nazis as somehow alien creatures, not ordinary people like us, we overlook a central point and a critical risk. Germany and Austria were a/the centers of science, culture, industry, and civilization; think of all those scientists, composers, industrialists, philosophers ... Humans - educated, modern people like us - did these things. A whole society provided all the services, political support, leadership, funding, engineering, manual labor, management, project management, architecture, transportation infrastructure and operations, IT (look up what IBM did), etc. etc. Imagine the scale of that project. Other whole societies helped or looked the other way; the U.S. turned away Jewish refugees from its shores, IIRC; the Roman Catholic church kept its head down, at best. (And others resisted, such as Denmark and, IIRC, the Eastern Orthodox church.) The human genetic code hasn't changed; we're biologically exactly the same as the Nazis, and millennia of humanity before that. Unless you believe in a supernatural power (and what good did that do?), nothing prevents the same (or other evils) from happening again except us. It doesn't happen randomly or instantly; we have societal norms and institutions. But we need to protect those norms and institutions and make sure we don't get to the point of doing evil; it's too late to stop by then. Rereading that, it sounds very grim; but we have all the power we need in our hands to stop it and more, to do good. I think of the people who built those institutions of freedom in the generations before us - in the U.S., for example, from Washington to Lincoln to MLK - making the world a better place. I think of the people who died in WWII - many 18 year old kids who died in pain - to give us the freedom we have today from Nazis, fascists, and religious oppression. What are we giving the next generation? (Sorry I got a bit carried away, but I don't mean it as a lecture; I feel pretty strongly about it.)

watwut 10y ago
Germany had strongly militaristic culture long before and was pretty violent prior Nazi taking power. Its democracy was also very dysfunctional, had weak support among citizens and many people did not got over previous revolutions yet. When we are painting them as the centers of science, culture and civilization, we are painting that in much better colors than was the actual reality. There is a risk it will happen again, but we are not there yet. We are far from that levels of dysfunction. (Same goes for French revolution and communist uprising in Russia.)
- hackuser 10y ago
  Agreed, very good points; thanks. I should have been more careful with my paints. I did mean to depict that we aren't there yet. > Germany had strongly militaristic culture long before The U.S. has had a strong culture of racial discrimination for its entire history. I don't mean that in an exaggerated sense like "everyone is racist", but I think that rationally it's hard to escape the fact that such a culture has always been prominent.
- lobf 10y ago
  Speaking of strong militaristic culture, this section of "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" is interesting, re: the role of Prussia in the modern German state: "By this time Prussia had pulled itself up by its own bootstraps to be one of the ranking military powers of Europe. It had none of the resources of the others. Its land was barren and bereft of minerals. The population was small. There were no large towns, no industry and little culture. Even the nobility was poor, and the landless peasants lived like cattle. Yet by a supreme act of will and a genius for organization the Hohenzollerns managed to create a Spartan military state whose well-drilled Army won one victory after another and whose Machiavellian diplomacy of temporary alliances with whatever power seemed the strongest brought constant additions to its territory. There thus arose quite artificially a state born of no popular force nor even of an idea except that of conquest, and held together by the absolute power of the ruler, by a narrow-minded bureaucracy which did his bidding and by a ruthlessly disciplined army. Two thirds and sometimes as much as five sixths of the annual state revenue was expended on the Army, which became, under the King, the state itself. “Prussia,” remarked Mirabeau, “is not a state with an army, but an army with a state.” And the state, which was run with the efficiency and soullessness of a factory, became all; the people were little more than cogs in the machinery. Individuals were taught not only by the kings and the drill sergeants but by the philosophers that their role in life was one of obedience, work, sacrifice and duty. Even Kant preached that duty demands the suppression of human feeling, and the Prussian poet Willibald Alexis gloried in the enslavement of the people under the Hohenzollerns. To Lessing, who did not like it, “Prussia was the most slavish country of Europe.”
- flukus 10y ago
  > Germany had strongly militaristic culture long before and was pretty violent prior Nazi taking power. Its democracy was also very dysfunctional, had weak support among citizens This is what I see when I like at the US. It may not be third reich levels, but compared tot he rest of the western world it is very militaristic and democratically dysfunctional.
mercer 10y ago
> Rereading that, it sounds very grim; but we have all the power we need in our hands to stop it and more, to do good. Fundamentally I share that optimism. However, I am a bit worried that the main 'solution' that I hear about is some variation of 'remembering the past' and 'education'. The reason why this worries me is that 'remembering and learning from the past' is probably exactly what people have said throughout history and yet we still had WW2/the holocaust, relatively recently. What do we do when 'never again!' keeps happening? I don't think the lesson is that learning from our past or being educated is not effective. So far at least in some regards we seem to be moving 'forward', however vague that statement is. I'm just worried that it's not effective enough.

watwut 10y ago

Germany had strongly militaristic culture long before and was pretty violent prior Nazi taking power. Its democracy was also very dysfunctional, had weak support among citizens and many people did not got over previous revolutions yet. When we are painting them as the centers of science, culture and civilization, we are painting that in much better colors than was the actual reality. There is a risk it will happen again, but we are not there yet. We are far from that levels of dysfunction. (Same goes for French revolution and communist uprising in Russia.)

hackuser 10y ago
Agreed, very good points; thanks. I should have been more careful with my paints. I did mean to depict that we aren't there yet. > Germany had strongly militaristic culture long before The U.S. has had a strong culture of racial discrimination for its entire history. I don't mean that in an exaggerated sense like "everyone is racist", but I think that rationally it's hard to escape the fact that such a culture has always been prominent.
lobf 10y ago
Speaking of strong militaristic culture, this section of "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" is interesting, re: the role of Prussia in the modern German state: "By this time Prussia had pulled itself up by its own bootstraps to be one of the ranking military powers of Europe. It had none of the resources of the others. Its land was barren and bereft of minerals. The population was small. There were no large towns, no industry and little culture. Even the nobility was poor, and the landless peasants lived like cattle. Yet by a supreme act of will and a genius for organization the Hohenzollerns managed to create a Spartan military state whose well-drilled Army won one victory after another and whose Machiavellian diplomacy of temporary alliances with whatever power seemed the strongest brought constant additions to its territory. There thus arose quite artificially a state born of no popular force nor even of an idea except that of conquest, and held together by the absolute power of the ruler, by a narrow-minded bureaucracy which did his bidding and by a ruthlessly disciplined army. Two thirds and sometimes as much as five sixths of the annual state revenue was expended on the Army, which became, under the King, the state itself. “Prussia,” remarked Mirabeau, “is not a state with an army, but an army with a state.” And the state, which was run with the efficiency and soullessness of a factory, became all; the people were little more than cogs in the machinery. Individuals were taught not only by the kings and the drill sergeants but by the philosophers that their role in life was one of obedience, work, sacrifice and duty. Even Kant preached that duty demands the suppression of human feeling, and the Prussian poet Willibald Alexis gloried in the enslavement of the people under the Hohenzollerns. To Lessing, who did not like it, “Prussia was the most slavish country of Europe.”
flukus 10y ago
> Germany had strongly militaristic culture long before and was pretty violent prior Nazi taking power. Its democracy was also very dysfunctional, had weak support among citizens This is what I see when I like at the US. It may not be third reich levels, but compared tot he rest of the western world it is very militaristic and democratically dysfunctional.

mercer 10y ago

> Rereading that, it sounds very grim; but we have all the power we need in our hands to stop it and more, to do good. Fundamentally I share that optimism. However, I am a bit worried that the main 'solution' that I hear about is some variation of 'remembering the past' and 'education'. The reason why this worries me is that 'remembering and learning from the past' is probably exactly what people have said throughout history and yet we still had WW2/the holocaust, relatively recently. What do we do when 'never again!' keeps happening? I don't think the lesson is that learning from our past or being educated is not effective. So far at least in some regards we seem to be moving 'forward', however vague that statement is. I'm just worried that it's not effective enough.