5 ms·

Removing my comments because this thread has sparked unnecessary discourse and reactions that this comment is the cause of.

djtriptych 10y ago
Probably much healthier to celebrate diversity than pretend it does not exist.
- treehau5 10y ago
  [removed]
  - djtriptych 10y ago
    It's irresponsible to mention quotas and affirmative action, but not the systemic (and legal) racism and sexism that made those programs necessary in the first place.
    - treehau5 10y ago
      [removed]
      - djtriptych 10y ago
        Not sure why you think calling the ACLU to fight on your behalf grants you a license to promote color-blindness as viable tactic against racism in this country.
        deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
libertymcateer 10y ago
> I understand the sentiment, but I also understand that if you truly want to get rid of racial bias, gender bias, whatever else bias completely, then not paying it mention in any sphere is how you get there. We lived in a world where racism exists, regardless of your own personal attitude. This is just like global climate change - simply because you personally are carbon neutral doesn't mean we don't have a systematic crisis on our hands. You are far, far too willing to wash your hands of the whole topic, and it is very naive. The fact of the matter is that advantages and disadvantages are built into your socioeconomic class, and race is a very strong indicator of your class affiliation. On top of this, like or it not, there are a huge number of racists of all types, ranging from people who proudly burn crosses to much more subtle or unintentional racism. Denying that people's attitudes is something that must be taken into consideration is just... staggering. To put it quite simply: the fact that you, an enlightened individual, do not take race into your moral consideration is laudable but it in no way affects the fact that hundreds of millions of people are already racist and you are willfully putting blinders on to this fact. The most concerning part is that many of these actively (or passively) racist people are in positions of power. Ignoring that is just childish. [There is a strong analogy to this comic by XKCD about the ridiculous beliefs of US Senators.](https://xkcd.com/154/ https://xkcd.com/154/) > And if you can't accept that people view this issue differently and think there are different solutions, you are part of the problem. Pot, meet kettle.
- treehau5 10y ago
  [removed]
  - firstworldman 10y ago
    Getting the interview in the first place is a good marker of the privileged upbringing that most tech industry job applicants have. The path to getting a high paying, high quality job interview is littered with cul-de-sacs where smart, hard working people without access to those same opportunities are asked to build their houses and stay for good. And class mobility (the American Dream) is mostly a myth (for a good and accessible look at this issue, check out the recent On the Media series on poverty, Busted http://www.wnyc.org/series/busted-americas-poverty-myths http://www.wnyc.org/series/busted-americas-poverty-myths ), so hard work is not the way out either.
dbaupp 10y ago
Ah yes, if you truly want to get rid of bugs in your software, then not mentioning them is the best way to get there. Start acting like your code has no bugs now! The status quo doesn't change if people don't talk about, analyse and challenge it.
- libertymcateer 10y ago
  "Fuck it, ship it" as applied to bugs in political systems... I like it. Maybe it can help get through to people who write code all day that racism is built up technical debt, and ignoring it doesn't mean it will go away?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
firstworldman 10y ago
I think that the solution lies in shining a light on, and whenever possible, celebrating differences, not ignoring them. Maybe some far off day we will be 'one people', after a few (dozen) generations of widespread interracial coupling, but that mostly misses the point. There are real divisions between people, socially constructed ones. That will likely always persist, and discussing categorical representation (or lack thereof) is an important part of making genuine strides toward diversity (in the workplace, in culture, etc). The goal is not to have everybody be the same, it's to make the 'thing' representative of the the diverse people that make up the 'thing'. Do you not agree that a young black kid deserves black heroes that she can relate her own story to? Why ignore that aspect of the story?
grb423 10y ago
probably better to be silent than to feed the alt-right, neo-Nazi trolls. Why can't privileged white people just keep quiet and listen for a while. It's time we recognize the tremendous contribution to computer science made by African-Americans. There is no place on HN for intolerance and hate.

djtriptych 10y ago

Probably much healthier to celebrate diversity than pretend it does not exist.

treehau5 10y ago
[removed]
- djtriptych 10y ago
  It's irresponsible to mention quotas and affirmative action, but not the systemic (and legal) racism and sexism that made those programs necessary in the first place.
  - treehau5 10y ago
    [removed]
    - djtriptych 10y ago
      Not sure why you think calling the ACLU to fight on your behalf grants you a license to promote color-blindness as viable tactic against racism in this country.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

libertymcateer 10y ago

> I understand the sentiment, but I also understand that if you truly want to get rid of racial bias, gender bias, whatever else bias completely, then not paying it mention in any sphere is how you get there. We lived in a world where racism exists, regardless of your own personal attitude. This is just like global climate change - simply because you personally are carbon neutral doesn't mean we don't have a systematic crisis on our hands. You are far, far too willing to wash your hands of the whole topic, and it is very naive. The fact of the matter is that advantages and disadvantages are built into your socioeconomic class, and race is a very strong indicator of your class affiliation. On top of this, like or it not, there are a huge number of racists of all types, ranging from people who proudly burn crosses to much more subtle or unintentional racism. Denying that people's attitudes is something that must be taken into consideration is just... staggering. To put it quite simply: the fact that you, an enlightened individual, do not take race into your moral consideration is laudable but it in no way affects the fact that hundreds of millions of people are already racist and you are willfully putting blinders on to this fact. The most concerning part is that many of these actively (or passively) racist people are in positions of power. Ignoring that is just childish. [There is a strong analogy to this comic by XKCD about the ridiculous beliefs of US Senators.](https://xkcd.com/154/ https://xkcd.com/154/) > And if you can't accept that people view this issue differently and think there are different solutions, you are part of the problem. Pot, meet kettle.

treehau5 10y ago
[removed]
- firstworldman 10y ago
  Getting the interview in the first place is a good marker of the privileged upbringing that most tech industry job applicants have. The path to getting a high paying, high quality job interview is littered with cul-de-sacs where smart, hard working people without access to those same opportunities are asked to build their houses and stay for good. And class mobility (the American Dream) is mostly a myth (for a good and accessible look at this issue, check out the recent On the Media series on poverty, Busted http://www.wnyc.org/series/busted-americas-poverty-myths http://www.wnyc.org/series/busted-americas-poverty-myths ), so hard work is not the way out either.

dbaupp 10y ago

Ah yes, if you truly want to get rid of bugs in your software, then not mentioning them is the best way to get there. Start acting like your code has no bugs now! The status quo doesn't change if people don't talk about, analyse and challenge it.

libertymcateer 10y ago
"Fuck it, ship it" as applied to bugs in political systems... I like it. Maybe it can help get through to people who write code all day that racism is built up technical debt, and ignoring it doesn't mean it will go away?
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

firstworldman 10y ago

I think that the solution lies in shining a light on, and whenever possible, celebrating differences, not ignoring them. Maybe some far off day we will be 'one people', after a few (dozen) generations of widespread interracial coupling, but that mostly misses the point. There are real divisions between people, socially constructed ones. That will likely always persist, and discussing categorical representation (or lack thereof) is an important part of making genuine strides toward diversity (in the workplace, in culture, etc). The goal is not to have everybody be the same, it's to make the 'thing' representative of the the diverse people that make up the 'thing'. Do you not agree that a young black kid deserves black heroes that she can relate her own story to? Why ignore that aspect of the story?

grb423 10y ago

probably better to be silent than to feed the alt-right, neo-Nazi trolls. Why can't privileged white people just keep quiet and listen for a while. It's time we recognize the tremendous contribution to computer science made by African-Americans. There is no place on HN for intolerance and hate.