5 ms·

they deliberately conflate legal (skilled) immigrants and illegal aliens. to them, there is no difference. it is a hyper-egalitarian interpretation of the wor

they deliberately conflate legal (skilled) immigrants and illegal aliens. to them, there is no difference. it is a hyper-egalitarian interpretation of the word 'immigrant' with no basis in law or social norms.

srum 10y ago
Didn't the recent travel ban attempt to revoke valid visas?
- dboreham 10y ago
  And bar entry to valid green card holders (permanent residents).
humanrebar 10y ago
> no basis in law or social norms To push back a little... I'm generally pro immigration and didn't vote for Trump (partly for these reasons). But there are valid points to be made about: * what a healthy level of immigration is * what a healthy immigration process looks like * how much should family concerns affect immigration chances * how much should professional skills affect immigration chances * how to enforce immigration laws The above are entirely about law and social norms. Just because you disagree doesn't mean there are no valid points. Not engaging those points is just retrenching people, promoting more division, and making reasonable people side with unreasonable ones like Trump. I'm gathering that most people who voted for Trump voted for the least bad option in their minds, not because they wanted a buffoon for a president.
- beachstartup 10y ago
  wow, i must suck at writing because you just made the same point i did. namely: legal and illegal immigration are completely different things and anyone who says otherwise is disregarding law and social norms.
  - humanrebar 10y ago
    I was saying that social norms and ideal laws aren't uniform and it's more productive to start from there. The point about legal vs. illegal immigration being different is well taken. I presume even Trump agrees with that given his immigrant family.
- digler999 10y ago
  * what a healthy level of immigration is specifically, what reasons is it being used for? It's been discussed here many times that the H1B program for tech workers is being used to depress wages and remove the immigrants' rights to competition. So while a politician may seem so shiny and "progressive" for increasing immigration, you never know if their back pockets are being padded by the tech corporations who save billions of dollars by not paying the "free market" rate for the skilled work.
ZeroGravitas 10y ago
Stephen Bannon stated that having Asian CEOs running 2/3rds of the companies in Silicon Valley was bad for civic society. Are unskilled workers sneaking in from Asia illegally to run Google and Microsoft or are you wrong about whether it's only unskilled, illegal immigrants that are being targetted? (We'll ignore for now the fact that 2/3rds is an incorrect figure, he was presumably intentionally exaggerating to inspire fear in his base.)
- beachstartup 10y ago
  i'm saying that legal and illegal immigration are two different things. the fact that steve bannon dislikes both types and probably (almost certainly) dislikes non-white people has nothing to do with my point. let's say all your worst fears are true, and bannon secretly is literally hitler. does that change the fact that legal vs. illegal immigrants are different, and should be treated differently, with a different set of laws and social acceptance? because i would say that even if he is literally hitler and mussolini combined, that would still hold true. i mean, what is your actual point here? that you don't like steve bannon? okay, great.
  - ZeroGravitas 10y ago
    You were clearly trying to paint "the other side" as unreasonable zealots, who pretend that upstanding, hardworking immigrants are under threat, when really it's only the classic illegal immigrant stereotype that your side have a problem with. (This stereotype is also BS but that's a different story...) Unfortunately for you, someone right at the very top of the Republican party that is in charge right now said something that blatantly contradicts your stated claim that this is an invented concern. Trump has also made comments about the 1965 change in immigration laws that makes it clear that the skin color of immigrants is more important to him than their legality, numbers or skill level. So feel free to apologize for misrepresenting their opinions or defend your original claim, rather than pretend you said something else.
    - beachstartup 10y ago
      i'll say it again, just in case you didn't get it the first time: illegal aliens are different than legal immigrants, and should be treated differently under the law, and in society. frankly, i don't care what the republicans or steve bannon think about it, that's apparently a major concern of yours, but isn't one of mine.

srum 10y ago

Didn't the recent travel ban attempt to revoke valid visas?

dboreham 10y ago
And bar entry to valid green card holders (permanent residents).

humanrebar 10y ago

> no basis in law or social norms To push back a little... I'm generally pro immigration and didn't vote for Trump (partly for these reasons). But there are valid points to be made about: * what a healthy level of immigration is * what a healthy immigration process looks like * how much should family concerns affect immigration chances * how much should professional skills affect immigration chances * how to enforce immigration laws The above are entirely about law and social norms. Just because you disagree doesn't mean there are no valid points. Not engaging those points is just retrenching people, promoting more division, and making reasonable people side with unreasonable ones like Trump. I'm gathering that most people who voted for Trump voted for the least bad option in their minds, not because they wanted a buffoon for a president.

beachstartup 10y ago
wow, i must suck at writing because you just made the same point i did. namely: legal and illegal immigration are completely different things and anyone who says otherwise is disregarding law and social norms.
- humanrebar 10y ago
  I was saying that social norms and ideal laws aren't uniform and it's more productive to start from there. The point about legal vs. illegal immigration being different is well taken. I presume even Trump agrees with that given his immigrant family.
digler999 10y ago
* what a healthy level of immigration is specifically, what reasons is it being used for? It's been discussed here many times that the H1B program for tech workers is being used to depress wages and remove the immigrants' rights to competition. So while a politician may seem so shiny and "progressive" for increasing immigration, you never know if their back pockets are being padded by the tech corporations who save billions of dollars by not paying the "free market" rate for the skilled work.

ZeroGravitas 10y ago

Stephen Bannon stated that having Asian CEOs running 2/3rds of the companies in Silicon Valley was bad for civic society. Are unskilled workers sneaking in from Asia illegally to run Google and Microsoft or are you wrong about whether it's only unskilled, illegal immigrants that are being targetted? (We'll ignore for now the fact that 2/3rds is an incorrect figure, he was presumably intentionally exaggerating to inspire fear in his base.)

beachstartup 10y ago
i'm saying that legal and illegal immigration are two different things. the fact that steve bannon dislikes both types and probably (almost certainly) dislikes non-white people has nothing to do with my point. let's say all your worst fears are true, and bannon secretly is literally hitler. does that change the fact that legal vs. illegal immigrants are different, and should be treated differently, with a different set of laws and social acceptance? because i would say that even if he is literally hitler and mussolini combined, that would still hold true. i mean, what is your actual point here? that you don't like steve bannon? okay, great.
- ZeroGravitas 10y ago
  You were clearly trying to paint "the other side" as unreasonable zealots, who pretend that upstanding, hardworking immigrants are under threat, when really it's only the classic illegal immigrant stereotype that your side have a problem with. (This stereotype is also BS but that's a different story...) Unfortunately for you, someone right at the very top of the Republican party that is in charge right now said something that blatantly contradicts your stated claim that this is an invented concern. Trump has also made comments about the 1965 change in immigration laws that makes it clear that the skin color of immigrants is more important to him than their legality, numbers or skill level. So feel free to apologize for misrepresenting their opinions or defend your original claim, rather than pretend you said something else.
  - beachstartup 10y ago
    i'll say it again, just in case you didn't get it the first time: illegal aliens are different than legal immigrants, and should be treated differently under the law, and in society. frankly, i don't care what the republicans or steve bannon think about it, that's apparently a major concern of yours, but isn't one of mine.