6 ms·

Good to see such quick progress in this area in major browsers. It's worth noting that WebKit also has 100% support for ES 2016+. So now only Edge is lagging in

by M4v3R 10y ago

Good to see such quick progress in this area in major browsers. It's worth noting that WebKit also has 100% support for ES 2016+. So now only Edge is lagging in this regard. [0] http://kangax.github.io/compat-table/es2016plus/#webkit http://kangax.github.io/compat-table/es2016plus/#webkit

pjmlp 10y ago
It doesn't help when one needs to target enterprise markets or devices that only have their factory provided browser.
- Touche 10y ago
  Nope, not everything is for everyone.
- paol 10y ago
  That's what Babel[0] is for. Realistically you can't rely on native ES2016 for any target audience yet, but with Babel you can blissfully live in the future, today :) Also, thrown in core-js[1] while you're at it. [0] https://babeljs.io/ https://babeljs.io/ [1] https://github.com/zloirock/core-js https://github.com/zloirock/core-js
  - Joe8Bit 10y ago
    A pedantic correction: web extension and add-on authors mostly can in browsers that auto-update.
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    Babel is only part of the history, then there is HTML and CSS support levels. Some of our projects are with customers that still rely on XP with IE 8, require using the "Internet Browser" for pre-Android 4.4 or Windows Safari (!) or IoT devices without updatable browsers.
    - myared 10y ago
      Your customers are lucky to have you. I imagine they will rely on XP and IE8 as long as you are around.
      - pjmlp 10y ago
        Not me personally, my employer is quite big, and any consulting company will happily sell such services.
  - CSMastermind 10y ago
    Babel has it's own set of flaws like causing a performance hit.
  - hzoo 10y ago
    Yep and with Babel we recommend using https://github.com/babel/babel-preset-env https://github.com/babel/babel-preset-env to compile only what's missing in the targets you support. Hopefully we have a better solution about making multiple bundles (separate one for IE) soon
    - emn13 10y ago
      I'm currently experimenting with if-no-window.Promise-then-polyfill via polyfill.io (I dont quite trust synchronous dynamic script loading yet, but we'll see if that's robust enough on old browsers). Sure, old browsers need an extra roundtrip, and it's an additional point of failure - but it simplifies dev tooling, and if your users actually cared about perf, they wouldn't be using ancient browsers. It won't fix many issues (e.g. CSS), but at least some, and without making your build complicated, and without performance sacrifices for the majority of devices.
      - pjmlp 10y ago
        > if your users actually cared about perf, they wouldn't be using ancient browsers. Many of them do care, but not the IT department that vets their machines.
        emn13 10y ago
        There are pros and cons there. The overhead isn't huge; if you use any ads whatsoever those likely swamp this effect anyhow. And dev time is limited - how much time is it worth shaving at best 100ms off for a small and shrinking group of clients? It's cacheable, so it's a not a commonly recurring delay, and it's likely to be a lot smaller on decent networks. (https://tools.keycdn.com/ping https://tools.keycdn.com/ping puts the worst ping as being from tokyo at 84ms; many are sub-ms as you might expect from a cdn). I think it's (potentially) a better tradeoff than making most clients pay for larger bundle sizes even though they don't need it. But well: tradeoffs.
- endless1234 10y ago
  Of course it helps, only there is a bit of a lag. How many 'enterprise markets' run <IE9 nowadays?
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    Pharma industry, labs with XP machines doing robot automation with IE 8 installed.
    - singlow 10y ago
      But who needs to access your web app from a dedicated special purpose lab equipment control workstation?
  - shakna 10y ago
    I know of eight products, compulsory for school's to use, such as OnDemand [0], put out by the Australian government, that only run under IE7/8. (Though the published specs say it runs on IE9+ for admin, and IE10+ for students, but I've never got admin to run under anything but IE7, and students on anything more than IE8.) I'd imagine that enterprises are still running many products with similar insane requirements, because they never get updates. [0] http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/Pages/prep10/ondemand/index.aspx http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/Pages/prep10/ondemand/index.aspx
    - phonon 10y ago
      Have you tried IE11 Enterprise (IE8) mode? https://www.howtogeek.com/184634/how-to-enable-and-use-internet-explorer-11s-enterprise-mode/ https://www.howtogeek.com/184634/how-to-enable-and-use-inter...
      - shakna 10y ago
        Unfortunately there are some minute differences in the way headers get passed to the server, and the user-agent string is slightly different as well. Badly made software doesn't play ball. Though it is theoretically possible to force it to work under IE8 mode, its simpler to supply real IE8 over a remote login.
krzyk 10y ago
Chrome has 85% in the above table (up from 80% from previous version), so why you are saying 100%? Maybe the above table doesn't include beta releases of Chrome?
- Joe8Bit 10y ago
  Chrome uses Blink (not WebKit), I beleive the parent was referring to Safari only.
- M4v3R 10y ago
  It's true, I forgot to mention Chrome which no longer uses WebKit.
  - krzyk 10y ago
    Ah, I'm still forgetting that Chrome is no longer WebKit.
whatever_dude 10y ago
And yet WebKit has 99% on ES5, while Edge and Firefox have 100% (and Chrome has 98%). http://kangax.github.io/compat-table/es5/ http://kangax.github.io/compat-table/es5/
- hajile 10y ago
  But webkit has 100% support for ES6 (according to kangex) while nobody else does...
  - whatever_dude 10y ago
    Yeah, and it's great. It's just that WebKit's (and Apple's) efforts are sometimes.. lopsided.
    - emn13 10y ago
      On the one hand, the deficiencies in that table don't look all too serious. Maybe Date.toJSON missing is the worst. On the other hand, that's a poor excuse - why the heck haven't they fixed these issues? Cross browser compat is annoying enough as it is.

by M4v3R 10y ago

pjmlp 10y ago

It doesn't help when one needs to target enterprise markets or devices that only have their factory provided browser.

Touche 10y ago
Nope, not everything is for everyone.
paol 10y ago
That's what Babel[0] is for. Realistically you can't rely on native ES2016 for any target audience yet, but with Babel you can blissfully live in the future, today :) Also, thrown in core-js[1] while you're at it. [0] https://babeljs.io/ https://babeljs.io/ [1] https://github.com/zloirock/core-js https://github.com/zloirock/core-js
- Joe8Bit 10y ago
  A pedantic correction: web extension and add-on authors mostly can in browsers that auto-update.
- pjmlp 10y ago
  Babel is only part of the history, then there is HTML and CSS support levels. Some of our projects are with customers that still rely on XP with IE 8, require using the "Internet Browser" for pre-Android 4.4 or Windows Safari (!) or IoT devices without updatable browsers.
  - myared 10y ago
    Your customers are lucky to have you. I imagine they will rely on XP and IE8 as long as you are around.
    - pjmlp 10y ago
      Not me personally, my employer is quite big, and any consulting company will happily sell such services.
- CSMastermind 10y ago
  Babel has it's own set of flaws like causing a performance hit.
- hzoo 10y ago
  Yep and with Babel we recommend using https://github.com/babel/babel-preset-env https://github.com/babel/babel-preset-env to compile only what's missing in the targets you support. Hopefully we have a better solution about making multiple bundles (separate one for IE) soon
  - emn13 10y ago
    I'm currently experimenting with if-no-window.Promise-then-polyfill via polyfill.io (I dont quite trust synchronous dynamic script loading yet, but we'll see if that's robust enough on old browsers). Sure, old browsers need an extra roundtrip, and it's an additional point of failure - but it simplifies dev tooling, and if your users actually cared about perf, they wouldn't be using ancient browsers. It won't fix many issues (e.g. CSS), but at least some, and without making your build complicated, and without performance sacrifices for the majority of devices.
    - pjmlp 10y ago
      > if your users actually cared about perf, they wouldn't be using ancient browsers. Many of them do care, but not the IT department that vets their machines.
      - emn13 10y ago
        There are pros and cons there. The overhead isn't huge; if you use any ads whatsoever those likely swamp this effect anyhow. And dev time is limited - how much time is it worth shaving at best 100ms off for a small and shrinking group of clients? It's cacheable, so it's a not a commonly recurring delay, and it's likely to be a lot smaller on decent networks. (https://tools.keycdn.com/ping https://tools.keycdn.com/ping puts the worst ping as being from tokyo at 84ms; many are sub-ms as you might expect from a cdn). I think it's (potentially) a better tradeoff than making most clients pay for larger bundle sizes even though they don't need it. But well: tradeoffs.
endless1234 10y ago
Of course it helps, only there is a bit of a lag. How many 'enterprise markets' run <IE9 nowadays?
- pjmlp 10y ago
  Pharma industry, labs with XP machines doing robot automation with IE 8 installed.
  - singlow 10y ago
    But who needs to access your web app from a dedicated special purpose lab equipment control workstation?
- shakna 10y ago
  I know of eight products, compulsory for school's to use, such as OnDemand [0], put out by the Australian government, that only run under IE7/8. (Though the published specs say it runs on IE9+ for admin, and IE10+ for students, but I've never got admin to run under anything but IE7, and students on anything more than IE8.) I'd imagine that enterprises are still running many products with similar insane requirements, because they never get updates. [0] http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/Pages/prep10/ondemand/index.aspx http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/Pages/prep10/ondemand/index.aspx
  - phonon 10y ago
    Have you tried IE11 Enterprise (IE8) mode? https://www.howtogeek.com/184634/how-to-enable-and-use-internet-explorer-11s-enterprise-mode/ https://www.howtogeek.com/184634/how-to-enable-and-use-inter...
    - shakna 10y ago
      Unfortunately there are some minute differences in the way headers get passed to the server, and the user-agent string is slightly different as well. Badly made software doesn't play ball. Though it is theoretically possible to force it to work under IE8 mode, its simpler to supply real IE8 over a remote login.

krzyk 10y ago

Chrome has 85% in the above table (up from 80% from previous version), so why you are saying 100%? Maybe the above table doesn't include beta releases of Chrome?

Joe8Bit 10y ago
Chrome uses Blink (not WebKit), I beleive the parent was referring to Safari only.
M4v3R 10y ago
It's true, I forgot to mention Chrome which no longer uses WebKit.
- krzyk 10y ago
  Ah, I'm still forgetting that Chrome is no longer WebKit.

whatever_dude 10y ago

And yet WebKit has 99% on ES5, while Edge and Firefox have 100% (and Chrome has 98%). http://kangax.github.io/compat-table/es5/ http://kangax.github.io/compat-table/es5/

hajile 10y ago
But webkit has 100% support for ES6 (according to kangex) while nobody else does...
- whatever_dude 10y ago
  Yeah, and it's great. It's just that WebKit's (and Apple's) efforts are sometimes.. lopsided.
  - emn13 10y ago
    On the one hand, the deficiencies in that table don't look all too serious. Maybe Date.toJSON missing is the worst. On the other hand, that's a poor excuse - why the heck haven't they fixed these issues? Cross browser compat is annoying enough as it is.