5 ms·

Well there's the rub, virtually nobody is selling out-of-the-box Linux PCs. So, if Linux is being installed by the user, you're rolling the dice on how nicely i

Well there's the rub, virtually nobody is selling out-of-the-box Linux PCs. So, if Linux is being installed by the user, you're rolling the dice on how nicely it plays with your wireless, touchpad, graphics, sound, webcam/microphone, HiDPI screen and so on. "Probably" isn't good enough when the competition is guaranteed to work out of the box. And again, it needs to be guaranteed totally automatic; the population we're discussing won't be able to make the correct selection from a dropdown or install drivers manually (or have any clue what that means). The problem with the GUIs I've seen for Network Manager is the same problem affecting nearly all Linux software, which is they're geared towards expert users. They expose too many configuration options to the user instead of hiding them in menus or preference panels. Experts like you or I see past all the noise and recognize the relevant bits. But a layman doesn't know what anything means or what's relevant, so they're likely to become stuck and confused. Worse, many of the visible but probably-irrelevant options will prevent them from connecting to the internet if they're set to the wrong thing. The biggest part of idiot-proof UI/UX is looking at a "connect to a wireless network" modal and counting the number of ways it's possible to exit the modal without vs. with successfully connecting. You want all roads to lead to the happy path, even with Grandma rand() at the wheel. Most Mac and Windows software could use improvement here too, although to a lesser extent, and same with iOS and Android but again to a lesser extent than with the desktop OSes. Think of a person who leases a Camry. They like it because it's familiar and easy to drive, it meets all their needs more than adequately, and it has a low cost of ownership. If something goes wrong they bring it to the dealership and it's either covered under warranty, or, if not, they just pay whatever the cost is out-of-pocket. When their 2 years are up they lease another Camry. One of the car blog Jalopnik's writers, Tavarish (https://kinja.com/apidaonline https://kinja.com/apidaonline), doesn't know why anyone would want a Camry when they could have a 10-year-old European sports or luxury car at the bottom of its depreciation curve. The idea they're maintenance nightmares is a myth; he does all the maintenance himself, and finds like-new parts in junkyards instead of buying from the OEM, so they hardly cost him anything to own. Obviously, Tavarish is an expert mechanic. He can replace a clutch or a turbocharger in his sleep, whereas so much as a fuse or a headlight is beyond the capabilities of our Camry lessee. We are experts. If our printer stops working we can recognize the issue, find and compile the community-supported open-source Epson 6000 SUX driver, and be on our merry way. Other people, who think a driver is a golf club or Morgan Freeman, just buy a new printer.

shmerl 10y ago
> Well there's the rub, virtually nobody is selling out-of-the-box Linux PCs. That's exactly the root of the problem that was discussed above, isn't it? So that's the real issue, and not inability of Linux itself to address common use cases of non technical users. Because Linux can address them today. > So, if Linux is being installed by the user, you're rolling the dice on how nicely it plays with your wireless, touchpad, graphics, sound, webcam/microphone, HiDPI screen and so on. Such users don't roll dice to decide what hardware to install on (if they are smart to install it on their own). They do research, get parts that work well with Linux, and then install it. Without doing research - well, anything can happen. > The problem with the GUIs I've seen for Network Manager is the same problem affecting nearly all Linux software, which is they're geared towards expert users. They expose too many configuration options to the user instead of hiding them in menus or preference panels. OK, for a test (KDE Plasma 5.8.4), I just enabled my WiFi (I'm currently on wired connection), selected a network from the list, and clicked a single button [Connect]. It opened a field for password right there. Type in the password - and voilà, it's connected. Nothing else is needed for the simplest scenario. Of course you can always go into connection settings and start changing around custom DNS and what not if you know what you are doing. But all of that in not exposed in the simplest case. So I doubt, configuring network will be an issue for Linux newcomers.
- smitherfield 10y ago
  > So that's the real issue, and not inability of Linux itself to address common use cases of non technical users. Because Linux can address them today. I think that's a lot truer than it was 15 years ago (although there hasn't been much improvement since 10 years ago), but it's still less true than is the case for Windows or Mac, which themselves are tricky for the inexpert user. There's a reason Dell markets their Linux laptop as the "developer edition" and not the "Linux edition" or "Ubuntu edition" or whatever. As discussed elsewhere here, OEMs who've sold Linux PCs get many returns, and find their customer support lines (very expensively) jammed with buyers completely clueless about how to accomplish any simple tasks with Linux. And, even if people who've never used a computer before would find Linux as easy to learn as Windows or MacOS (IMO it's in the same ballpark but still behind), most people have used computers, and have already learned how to accomplish basic tasks on one of the Big 2 desktop OSes. With Linux they need to relearn all that from scratch (and for that specific dialect). People have only so much free time, and that's a big time commitment for them, with a big opportunity cost. When MS had their Windows 8 debacle (making their users have to relearn how to accomplish basic tasks), IIRC, Macs increased in market share, but the Linux market share didn't move (or at least it's relative improvement was worse than Mac). And then Windows 10 gained some of the market share 8 lost, at the expense of both Mac and Linux. My interpretation of those data is that they suggest Linux is harder for new mass-market users to learn than MacOS or traditional Windows. > Such users don't roll dice to decide what hardware to install on (if they are smart to install it on their own). They do research, get parts that work well with Linux, and then install it. Without doing research - well, anything can happen. Sure, but now we're talking about experts again. Edit: > OK, for a test (KDE Plasma 5.8.4)… I don't know about for KDE, but Gnome and Unity display this (http://oi62.tinypic.com/kncl4.jpg http://oi62.tinypic.com/kncl4.jpg) reasonable modal if it can deduce the network's security method, and this (https://hub.acadiau.ca/TDPortal/Shared/ImageViewer.ashx?fileName=fa0a2ec2-53d1-4e3b-bb58-2235d35145c0.png https://hub.acadiau.ca/TDPortal/Shared/ImageViewer.ashx?file...) very unreasonable (for a layman) modal if it can't.

shmerl 10y ago

> Well there's the rub, virtually nobody is selling out-of-the-box Linux PCs. That's exactly the root of the problem that was discussed above, isn't it? So that's the real issue, and not inability of Linux itself to address common use cases of non technical users. Because Linux can address them today. > So, if Linux is being installed by the user, you're rolling the dice on how nicely it plays with your wireless, touchpad, graphics, sound, webcam/microphone, HiDPI screen and so on. Such users don't roll dice to decide what hardware to install on (if they are smart to install it on their own). They do research, get parts that work well with Linux, and then install it. Without doing research - well, anything can happen. > The problem with the GUIs I've seen for Network Manager is the same problem affecting nearly all Linux software, which is they're geared towards expert users. They expose too many configuration options to the user instead of hiding them in menus or preference panels. OK, for a test (KDE Plasma 5.8.4), I just enabled my WiFi (I'm currently on wired connection), selected a network from the list, and clicked a single button [Connect]. It opened a field for password right there. Type in the password - and voilà, it's connected. Nothing else is needed for the simplest scenario. Of course you can always go into connection settings and start changing around custom DNS and what not if you know what you are doing. But all of that in not exposed in the simplest case. So I doubt, configuring network will be an issue for Linux newcomers.

smitherfield 10y ago
> So that's the real issue, and not inability of Linux itself to address common use cases of non technical users. Because Linux can address them today. I think that's a lot truer than it was 15 years ago (although there hasn't been much improvement since 10 years ago), but it's still less true than is the case for Windows or Mac, which themselves are tricky for the inexpert user. There's a reason Dell markets their Linux laptop as the "developer edition" and not the "Linux edition" or "Ubuntu edition" or whatever. As discussed elsewhere here, OEMs who've sold Linux PCs get many returns, and find their customer support lines (very expensively) jammed with buyers completely clueless about how to accomplish any simple tasks with Linux. And, even if people who've never used a computer before would find Linux as easy to learn as Windows or MacOS (IMO it's in the same ballpark but still behind), most people have used computers, and have already learned how to accomplish basic tasks on one of the Big 2 desktop OSes. With Linux they need to relearn all that from scratch (and for that specific dialect). People have only so much free time, and that's a big time commitment for them, with a big opportunity cost. When MS had their Windows 8 debacle (making their users have to relearn how to accomplish basic tasks), IIRC, Macs increased in market share, but the Linux market share didn't move (or at least it's relative improvement was worse than Mac). And then Windows 10 gained some of the market share 8 lost, at the expense of both Mac and Linux. My interpretation of those data is that they suggest Linux is harder for new mass-market users to learn than MacOS or traditional Windows. > Such users don't roll dice to decide what hardware to install on (if they are smart to install it on their own). They do research, get parts that work well with Linux, and then install it. Without doing research - well, anything can happen. Sure, but now we're talking about experts again. Edit: > OK, for a test (KDE Plasma 5.8.4)… I don't know about for KDE, but Gnome and Unity display this (http://oi62.tinypic.com/kncl4.jpg http://oi62.tinypic.com/kncl4.jpg) reasonable modal if it can deduce the network's security method, and this (https://hub.acadiau.ca/TDPortal/Shared/ImageViewer.ashx?fileName=fa0a2ec2-53d1-4e3b-bb58-2235d35145c0.png https://hub.acadiau.ca/TDPortal/Shared/ImageViewer.ashx?file...) very unreasonable (for a layman) modal if it can't.