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I would not hire a software developer if he/she does not have a CS degree from an accredited university. I could care less about what people learn at colleges

I would not hire a software developer if he/she does not have a CS degree from an accredited university. I could care less about what people learn at colleges or how someone without a degree could know more than them. It's not the knowledge that I'm after, it's the person. Someone with a college degree has shown they can make a long term commitment, take on a large and complicated task and see it through. I know that for at least four years they have been exposed to individuals who are at the top of the industry and have learned about CS with peers who share the same interest and are now their close connections. Although all of these might be true with an individual without a CS degree but the odds of that is so miniscule that I believe it's not worth taking a chance. Just my opinion

oldsj 10y ago
What would you think about a degree in "Software development"* from an accredited university? I'm sure it won't hold the same weight as CS but would you at least put it in the same league? *It's basically CS minus the math.
burkaman 10y ago
Wouldn't 4 years of work be pretty equivalent, especially with good references? I think college is incredibly valuable, but it's pretty ridiculous to say that the odds of good engineer without a degree existing are "miniscule". Have you really never worked with someone without a degree?
- rezashirazian 10y ago
  > that the odds of good engineer without a degree existing are "miniscule" I didn't say that. I said the odds of finding an engineer without a college degree who can prove to me that they can commit and achieve a long and complicated personal goal, have been exposed to individuals who are experts in the field and have built a network of colleagues who also share the same personal traits and passion is miniscule in comparison to someone who has a college degree. This doesn't mean someone with a college degree gets an easy pass. It just means I can make certain assumptions that I cannot make for someone without a degree, and given the importance of hiring, it's a chance I don't I would take.
  - burkaman 10y ago
    I understand, I just don't get why a good job doesn't qualify. Work projects are much longer and more complicated than school projects, you're working with accomplished professionals in the field, and at a good office you're surrounded by people with the same traits and passion. I know anecdotes don't mean much, but I'm sure you went to school with people who didn't give a shit, and I'm sure you've worked with great engineers who didn't go to college or have a non-CS degree. Obviously it's up to you who you hire, but I'd encourage you to give a couple non-degree candidates a shot next time. Just ask them questions about the stuff you've mentioned here. Tell me about some projects you've worked on, what are you passionate about, how do you keep up with current technology, etc. It's not that hard to make sure someone meets the same baseline of "you're committed enough to not drop out of college".
falcolas 10y ago
I appreciate your optimism about the value of your average CS degree, though I think it's completely unfounded. There are hundreds of thousands of CS degrees handed out from over a hundred accredited universities every year. > I know that for at least four years they have been exposed to individuals who are at the top of the industry The chances of all of those students being exposed to "individuals who are at the top of the industry" is pretty much nil (I'd even argue that folks who fit that description are not to be found in most, if not all, universities). > peers who share the same interest and are now their close connections. Those close connections with their peer groups is going to provide, IMO, pretty much zero value in the short term. That's a recipe for an echo chamber where programming memes are passed around and mistaken for wisdom. In the long term, as they gain experience and learn about the real world, that's when those peer groups are going to be valuable. But by that point, if you're still looking for that CS degree, you're looking for the least valuable part of their experience.
- rezashirazian 10y ago
  > I appreciate your optimism about the value of your average CS degree, It's not perfect, but when you're hiring you're taking a chance and have to hedge your odd for success. > The chances of all of those students being exposed to "individuals who are at the top of the industry" is pretty much nil It's higher than someone who is plowing through online courses and YouTube videos. > Those close connections with their peer groups is going to provide, IMO, pretty much zero value in the short term. I would have to disagree with your opinion. Being exposed to other individuals who share the same value and aspiration has plenty of short term and long term values for the student and the individual that hires her. In short term, when you hire a new grad who is a great fit, odds are his friends from college would also be a great fit. In long term these individuals and their network "gain experience and learn about the real world" concurrently. So their network expands much faster than someone who is picking up the trade on their own.

oldsj 10y ago

What would you think about a degree in "Software development"* from an accredited university? I'm sure it won't hold the same weight as CS but would you at least put it in the same league? *It's basically CS minus the math.

burkaman 10y ago

Wouldn't 4 years of work be pretty equivalent, especially with good references? I think college is incredibly valuable, but it's pretty ridiculous to say that the odds of good engineer without a degree existing are "miniscule". Have you really never worked with someone without a degree?

rezashirazian 10y ago
> that the odds of good engineer without a degree existing are "miniscule" I didn't say that. I said the odds of finding an engineer without a college degree who can prove to me that they can commit and achieve a long and complicated personal goal, have been exposed to individuals who are experts in the field and have built a network of colleagues who also share the same personal traits and passion is miniscule in comparison to someone who has a college degree. This doesn't mean someone with a college degree gets an easy pass. It just means I can make certain assumptions that I cannot make for someone without a degree, and given the importance of hiring, it's a chance I don't I would take.
- burkaman 10y ago
  I understand, I just don't get why a good job doesn't qualify. Work projects are much longer and more complicated than school projects, you're working with accomplished professionals in the field, and at a good office you're surrounded by people with the same traits and passion. I know anecdotes don't mean much, but I'm sure you went to school with people who didn't give a shit, and I'm sure you've worked with great engineers who didn't go to college or have a non-CS degree. Obviously it's up to you who you hire, but I'd encourage you to give a couple non-degree candidates a shot next time. Just ask them questions about the stuff you've mentioned here. Tell me about some projects you've worked on, what are you passionate about, how do you keep up with current technology, etc. It's not that hard to make sure someone meets the same baseline of "you're committed enough to not drop out of college".

falcolas 10y ago

I appreciate your optimism about the value of your average CS degree, though I think it's completely unfounded. There are hundreds of thousands of CS degrees handed out from over a hundred accredited universities every year. > I know that for at least four years they have been exposed to individuals who are at the top of the industry The chances of all of those students being exposed to "individuals who are at the top of the industry" is pretty much nil (I'd even argue that folks who fit that description are not to be found in most, if not all, universities). > peers who share the same interest and are now their close connections. Those close connections with their peer groups is going to provide, IMO, pretty much zero value in the short term. That's a recipe for an echo chamber where programming memes are passed around and mistaken for wisdom. In the long term, as they gain experience and learn about the real world, that's when those peer groups are going to be valuable. But by that point, if you're still looking for that CS degree, you're looking for the least valuable part of their experience.

rezashirazian 10y ago
> I appreciate your optimism about the value of your average CS degree, It's not perfect, but when you're hiring you're taking a chance and have to hedge your odd for success. > The chances of all of those students being exposed to "individuals who are at the top of the industry" is pretty much nil It's higher than someone who is plowing through online courses and YouTube videos. > Those close connections with their peer groups is going to provide, IMO, pretty much zero value in the short term. I would have to disagree with your opinion. Being exposed to other individuals who share the same value and aspiration has plenty of short term and long term values for the student and the individual that hires her. In short term, when you hire a new grad who is a great fit, odds are his friends from college would also be a great fit. In long term these individuals and their network "gain experience and learn about the real world" concurrently. So their network expands much faster than someone who is picking up the trade on their own.