7 ms·

I'm all for exploring new approaches, however: a) Salt water is highly corrosive. Wouldn't maintenance costs be high? b) Isn't marine biology highly sensitive

I'm all for exploring new approaches, however: a) Salt water is highly corrosive. Wouldn't maintenance costs be high? b) Isn't marine biology highly sensitive to heat pollution? For high latency services like Amazon Glacier, wouldn't it make sense to host in a place like Iceland? Really cheap hydrothermic/clean power. Highly educated local talent pool, and relatively consistent cool temperatures. If you're maintaining 80F (http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2008/10/14/google-raise-your-data-center-temperature/ http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2008/10/14/googl...) the ambient temps outside should provide ample cooling year round. For lower latency requirements, wouldn't it be worth it to install efficient cooling powered by electricity? (preferably renewable) With cheap solar who really cares about grid power loss and associated inefficiencies? Essentially, I think it makes sense to get better at solar than to have Steve Zissou as a server admin.

Florin_Andrei 10y ago
> Salt water is highly corrosive. To metals. Not so much to plastics. > Isn't marine biology highly sensitive to heat pollution? Isn't land-based biology highly sensitive to heat pollution?
- smallnamespace 10y ago
  > Isn't land-based biology highly sensitive to heat pollution? No, land-based organisms comparatively have a much, much higher tolerance to temperature swings. Water's high heat capacity and conductivity means that most marine environments have extremely stable temperature ranges (a few degrees one way or other), so most marine species are adapted to live in only that range, and quickly die otherwise. Tropical fish are hard to keep alive precisely for this reason. Air temperature varies much more widely depending on time of day, season, and weather, so terrestrial organisms have all developed extensive strategies for thermoregulation (e.g. mammals, birds). For example, dogs can survive in both arctic and tropical environments. Plus, while heat is naturally dissipated upward, underwater thermal plumes are more likely to affect fish than above-ground plumes would affect birds. FYI, Cornell uses lake water to cool several campus buildings, and they needed to carefully review that the warmer return water wouldn't negatively affect fish [1]. [1] https://energyandsustainability.fs.cornell.edu/util/cooling/production/lsc/eis/fish.cfm https://energyandsustainability.fs.cornell.edu/util/cooling/...
  - ouid 10y ago
    Sunlight imparts about a kilowatt per square meter to the surface of the ocean at noon, I'm not exactly sure how to use that information, but it does seem relevant for bounding the problem.
    - afarrell 10y ago
      The specific heat of water is much higher than that of air.
      - klodolph 10y ago
        Right, but the data center heat output will also be measured in (mega)watts.
    - saeranv 10y ago
      This gets a lot lower with differing latitudes and seasonal and daily cloud cover/evening time - closer to 100 W/m2 [1]. So over a day you'd get 2.4 kWh. In comparison an electric space heater uses about 1 kWh of energy in an hour. So how much will 2.4 kWh change the temperature of a cubic meter of water at the ocean surface? Density of water = 1000kg/1m3 so mass = 1000 kg 2.4 kWh = 8640 kJ Heat_Energy = Conductance * Mass * change_in_temp 8640kJ = 4.186 kJ/(kg⋅K) * 1000kg * xC x = 2C So solar heat will change the first meter of water by about 2C over the course of a day. That's a small number b/c solar radiation is not a huge contributer to temperature swings. Instead what will effect the temperature difference is the seasonal change. If we can calculate the heat energy gained or lost due to seasonal extremes and water temp, then we can figure out what the range of acceptable heat energy is for surface water. [1] https://www.withouthotair.com/c6/page_38.shtml https://www.withouthotair.com/c6/page_38.shtml ETA: logic.
- walrus01 10y ago
  > To metals. Not so much to plastics. I'm guessing you've never experienced the joys of owning a 30 to 40 ft sized, completely non metal (fiberglass hull) sailboat kept in salt water, with all of the great fun of paying to haul it and have the marine growth scaped off, pressure washed, double or triple coat bottom paint re-applied, etc. Just because it's not metal doesn't mean it doesn't attract the category of what the maritime industry lumps together as "marine fouling".
  - Xylakant 10y ago
    Though marine fouling is primarily of concern for fiberglass boats because it massively increases drag which admittedly is less of an issue for a datacenter. It's still an issue for the pods as mentioned in the article, but I'd expect it to be less grave than on a boat.
    - baking 10y ago
      Marine fouling of the heat exchangers is probably the biggest technical hurdle.
      - Xylakant 10y ago
        Yes, as well as keeping all kinds of marine life out of there.
    - walrus01 10y ago
      But I require a datacenter with a hull speed of at least 7.5 knots.
      - Xylakant 10y ago
        let me double check the hull speed formula for datacenters.
        amygdyl 10y ago
        and buoyancy from unvented exhaust from fuel cells ... Edit: I'm very silly, confusing a few thoughts: e.g natural gas > hydrogen conversion in a cell, assuming some storage of the hydrogen, and less dense non salt water from that - all reducing the pod density but hardly exhausts one traps like a submarine vents. What would please my errant mind, growing up by the sea, and startled at effluent pipes i could never believe were far enough out, at low tide, would be biomass conversion fuel cells, attached to sewage pipes otherwise dumping into the sea, but i don't know if treatment renders the mass useless as a energy source. The vision in my head was of container pods popping up, floated from their submersion, for maintenance, kinda being hooked in like exhausted tuna, winched aboard a maintenance vessel once a year, for a data catch... or being fed denser storage or servers... However, what this might do well for, is submerging compute jobs that are expected to run for a long time without much or any external communication. Are there any simulation jobs where enough compute fits inside such a container, so requires mo networking to other containers, and can be retrieved when job complete, to gather results? Would the energy savings make any sense from a cooling pov, if a hypothetical internal power source could last say a year or two?
- ch4s3 10y ago
  Plastics are good, but you need to have tubes going into the thing, as well as some means of accessing the inside even if you only access it on a ship/land. That means rubber and metal will have to be on the exterior somewhere.
  - amygdyl 10y ago
    How submerged does this have to be? Could periscopes aim optical networks, say from 20m below? I'm imagining biomass consuming "creatures", now, with gills to draw the effluent waste from areas around raw sewage outflows that horrified me when little, despite ,my dad rarely corrected about such things, assured me they were legal at the end's distance from shore that i could easily spot nonetheless. My optical networks knowledge is nil, but can simply larger diameter less pure plastic optic fibers transmit sufficient data, compensating by cross section in any way? Assuming one might try to build them strong enough to act also as physical ties, if other limits on movement like chains failed? Can such plastics be made?
fryguy 10y ago
For a, you can put a sacrificial anode on the frame. Given that the rate of corrosion should be known, the size of it can be calculated to however long the pod is expected to be in service.
- linkregister 10y ago
  This sounds really interesting, can you explain it further for a layman? (Not being snarky, I genuinely know very little about chemistry)
  - badosu 10y ago
    See this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathodic_protection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathodic_protection
  - wpaladin 10y ago
    This is probably what OP meant: "They are made from a metal alloy with a more "active" voltage (more negative reduction potential / more positive electrochemical potential) than the metal of the structure. The difference in potential between the two metals means that the galvanic anode corrodes, so that the anode material is consumed in preference to the structure." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_anode https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_anode
  - fryguy 10y ago
    Basically, the reason that things corrode is that there are dissimilar metals, one with more electrons than the other creating a voltage between them. So your part is a battery and the ocean is the "wire". The electrons move from your part (corroding them), to other parts with less electrons. If instead you have a sacrificial piece of zinc, the zinc has more electrons than your part so the electrons will come from the sacrificial piece of zinc instead of your part. Think of it like a lightning rod, but for corrosion instead of lightning. It's more complicated than this, but that's the general idea.
  - bmm6o 10y ago
    It's fairly common on boats to have exposed zinc whose only purpose is to be sacrificially electrolized (IIRC) to protect your steel or aluminum.
longerthoughts 10y ago
> b) Isn't marine biology highly sensitive to heat pollution? Impact on the marine environment is briefly mentioned in the last couple of paragraphs of the article, although they're a little dismissive and don't provide any evidence supporting their claim of negligible impact.
- nkoren 10y ago
  Nuclear power plants usually dump their tertiary cooling water into the ocean. That's not a great situation for the local sea life (within a few hundred meters, IIRC), but doesn't have much significance beyond that. That is several orders of magnitudes more heat output than could conceivably come off a data centre. So their dismissiveness is likely warranted. A bit more concerning is the notion of relocating these data centre pods. Long-term "reefs" that are relocated around the world could perhaps be a new and different vector for transmitting invasive organisms. I'm not an expert, but I'd want to hear a few of them opine as to whether this creates any risks that ordinary shipping does not.
  - marze 10y ago
    A 1 GW reactor puts 2 GW+ heat into the sea, a river, or lake. A server sub would put 200W * (say) 1000 servers, or 0.0002 GW.
  - verelo 10y ago
    > "A bit more concerning is the notion of relocating these data centre pods" What are the requirements for cargo ships? I suspect they run into this regularly when in a dock for extended periods or undergoing maintenance that doesn't require a dry-dock.
  - paulcole 10y ago
    >Nuclear power plants usually dump their tertiary cooling water into the ocean The heated water from a power plant can actually provide a refuge for manatees and other wildlife that prefer warm water during cold winter. They're actually known as good fishing spots in Florida!
  - 10y ago
ThrustVectoring 10y ago
>Isn't marine biology highly sensitive to heat pollution? The ocean is really, really big.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
stcredzero 10y ago
Essentially, I think it makes sense to get better at solar than to have Steve Zissou as a server admin. 1) In the original article, these server farms would be remote administration only. 2) Such facilities would make the secret construction of one's James Bond Villain underwater base much, much easier. (Wouldn't Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, and Peter Thiel all make great Bond villains?)
- dmourati 10y ago
  Don't forget Larry Ellison, the original tech CEO-cum-Bond Villain http://www.josephrosenfeld.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Larry-Ellison-Getty-1.jpg http://www.josephrosenfeld.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/La...
- wsinks 10y ago
  Kim DotCom needs a good place that is in international waters so he doesn't get extradited. Villains are sometimes just victims of their circumstances and trying to survive. Elon and co are the secret villains.
  - stcredzero 10y ago
    Villains are sometimes just victims of their circumstances and trying to survive. Julius Caesar is the quintessential example of someone who becomes something just out of trying to survive. He was a hero to many and a villain to many as well. I wish more villains were written that way.
- Ntrails 10y ago
  >Wouldn't Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, and Peter Thiel all make great Bond villains? You know if Elon Musk tried to take over the world as a benevolent dictator I'm not entirely sure I'd fight against it...
  - megous 10y ago
    Lord Acton comes to mind.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
WalterBright 10y ago
Consider that there are many underwater volcanos. A data center would be negligible.
08-15 10y ago
> I think it makes sense to get better at solar Then why don't you "get better at solar" and become rich in the process? What did you say, it's too hard, practically impossible? Yeah, life's a bitch, isn't it?

Florin_Andrei 10y ago

> Salt water is highly corrosive. To metals. Not so much to plastics. > Isn't marine biology highly sensitive to heat pollution? Isn't land-based biology highly sensitive to heat pollution?

smallnamespace 10y ago
> Isn't land-based biology highly sensitive to heat pollution? No, land-based organisms comparatively have a much, much higher tolerance to temperature swings. Water's high heat capacity and conductivity means that most marine environments have extremely stable temperature ranges (a few degrees one way or other), so most marine species are adapted to live in only that range, and quickly die otherwise. Tropical fish are hard to keep alive precisely for this reason. Air temperature varies much more widely depending on time of day, season, and weather, so terrestrial organisms have all developed extensive strategies for thermoregulation (e.g. mammals, birds). For example, dogs can survive in both arctic and tropical environments. Plus, while heat is naturally dissipated upward, underwater thermal plumes are more likely to affect fish than above-ground plumes would affect birds. FYI, Cornell uses lake water to cool several campus buildings, and they needed to carefully review that the warmer return water wouldn't negatively affect fish [1]. [1] https://energyandsustainability.fs.cornell.edu/util/cooling/production/lsc/eis/fish.cfm https://energyandsustainability.fs.cornell.edu/util/cooling/...
- ouid 10y ago
  Sunlight imparts about a kilowatt per square meter to the surface of the ocean at noon, I'm not exactly sure how to use that information, but it does seem relevant for bounding the problem.
  - afarrell 10y ago
    The specific heat of water is much higher than that of air.
    - klodolph 10y ago
      Right, but the data center heat output will also be measured in (mega)watts.
  - saeranv 10y ago
    This gets a lot lower with differing latitudes and seasonal and daily cloud cover/evening time - closer to 100 W/m2 [1]. So over a day you'd get 2.4 kWh. In comparison an electric space heater uses about 1 kWh of energy in an hour. So how much will 2.4 kWh change the temperature of a cubic meter of water at the ocean surface? Density of water = 1000kg/1m3 so mass = 1000 kg 2.4 kWh = 8640 kJ Heat_Energy = Conductance * Mass * change_in_temp 8640kJ = 4.186 kJ/(kg⋅K) * 1000kg * xC x = 2C So solar heat will change the first meter of water by about 2C over the course of a day. That's a small number b/c solar radiation is not a huge contributer to temperature swings. Instead what will effect the temperature difference is the seasonal change. If we can calculate the heat energy gained or lost due to seasonal extremes and water temp, then we can figure out what the range of acceptable heat energy is for surface water. [1] https://www.withouthotair.com/c6/page_38.shtml https://www.withouthotair.com/c6/page_38.shtml ETA: logic.
walrus01 10y ago
> To metals. Not so much to plastics. I'm guessing you've never experienced the joys of owning a 30 to 40 ft sized, completely non metal (fiberglass hull) sailboat kept in salt water, with all of the great fun of paying to haul it and have the marine growth scaped off, pressure washed, double or triple coat bottom paint re-applied, etc. Just because it's not metal doesn't mean it doesn't attract the category of what the maritime industry lumps together as "marine fouling".
- Xylakant 10y ago
  Though marine fouling is primarily of concern for fiberglass boats because it massively increases drag which admittedly is less of an issue for a datacenter. It's still an issue for the pods as mentioned in the article, but I'd expect it to be less grave than on a boat.
  - baking 10y ago
    Marine fouling of the heat exchangers is probably the biggest technical hurdle.
    - Xylakant 10y ago
      Yes, as well as keeping all kinds of marine life out of there.
  - walrus01 10y ago
    But I require a datacenter with a hull speed of at least 7.5 knots.
    - Xylakant 10y ago
      let me double check the hull speed formula for datacenters.
      - amygdyl 10y ago
        and buoyancy from unvented exhaust from fuel cells ... Edit: I'm very silly, confusing a few thoughts: e.g natural gas > hydrogen conversion in a cell, assuming some storage of the hydrogen, and less dense non salt water from that - all reducing the pod density but hardly exhausts one traps like a submarine vents. What would please my errant mind, growing up by the sea, and startled at effluent pipes i could never believe were far enough out, at low tide, would be biomass conversion fuel cells, attached to sewage pipes otherwise dumping into the sea, but i don't know if treatment renders the mass useless as a energy source. The vision in my head was of container pods popping up, floated from their submersion, for maintenance, kinda being hooked in like exhausted tuna, winched aboard a maintenance vessel once a year, for a data catch... or being fed denser storage or servers... However, what this might do well for, is submerging compute jobs that are expected to run for a long time without much or any external communication. Are there any simulation jobs where enough compute fits inside such a container, so requires mo networking to other containers, and can be retrieved when job complete, to gather results? Would the energy savings make any sense from a cooling pov, if a hypothetical internal power source could last say a year or two?
ch4s3 10y ago
Plastics are good, but you need to have tubes going into the thing, as well as some means of accessing the inside even if you only access it on a ship/land. That means rubber and metal will have to be on the exterior somewhere.
- amygdyl 10y ago
  How submerged does this have to be? Could periscopes aim optical networks, say from 20m below? I'm imagining biomass consuming "creatures", now, with gills to draw the effluent waste from areas around raw sewage outflows that horrified me when little, despite ,my dad rarely corrected about such things, assured me they were legal at the end's distance from shore that i could easily spot nonetheless. My optical networks knowledge is nil, but can simply larger diameter less pure plastic optic fibers transmit sufficient data, compensating by cross section in any way? Assuming one might try to build them strong enough to act also as physical ties, if other limits on movement like chains failed? Can such plastics be made?

fryguy 10y ago

For a, you can put a sacrificial anode on the frame. Given that the rate of corrosion should be known, the size of it can be calculated to however long the pod is expected to be in service.

linkregister 10y ago
This sounds really interesting, can you explain it further for a layman? (Not being snarky, I genuinely know very little about chemistry)
- badosu 10y ago
  See this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathodic_protection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathodic_protection
- wpaladin 10y ago
  This is probably what OP meant: "They are made from a metal alloy with a more "active" voltage (more negative reduction potential / more positive electrochemical potential) than the metal of the structure. The difference in potential between the two metals means that the galvanic anode corrodes, so that the anode material is consumed in preference to the structure." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_anode https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_anode
- fryguy 10y ago
  Basically, the reason that things corrode is that there are dissimilar metals, one with more electrons than the other creating a voltage between them. So your part is a battery and the ocean is the "wire". The electrons move from your part (corroding them), to other parts with less electrons. If instead you have a sacrificial piece of zinc, the zinc has more electrons than your part so the electrons will come from the sacrificial piece of zinc instead of your part. Think of it like a lightning rod, but for corrosion instead of lightning. It's more complicated than this, but that's the general idea.
- bmm6o 10y ago
  It's fairly common on boats to have exposed zinc whose only purpose is to be sacrificially electrolized (IIRC) to protect your steel or aluminum.

longerthoughts 10y ago

> b) Isn't marine biology highly sensitive to heat pollution? Impact on the marine environment is briefly mentioned in the last couple of paragraphs of the article, although they're a little dismissive and don't provide any evidence supporting their claim of negligible impact.

nkoren 10y ago
Nuclear power plants usually dump their tertiary cooling water into the ocean. That's not a great situation for the local sea life (within a few hundred meters, IIRC), but doesn't have much significance beyond that. That is several orders of magnitudes more heat output than could conceivably come off a data centre. So their dismissiveness is likely warranted. A bit more concerning is the notion of relocating these data centre pods. Long-term "reefs" that are relocated around the world could perhaps be a new and different vector for transmitting invasive organisms. I'm not an expert, but I'd want to hear a few of them opine as to whether this creates any risks that ordinary shipping does not.
- marze 10y ago
  A 1 GW reactor puts 2 GW+ heat into the sea, a river, or lake. A server sub would put 200W * (say) 1000 servers, or 0.0002 GW.
- verelo 10y ago
  > "A bit more concerning is the notion of relocating these data centre pods" What are the requirements for cargo ships? I suspect they run into this regularly when in a dock for extended periods or undergoing maintenance that doesn't require a dry-dock.
- paulcole 10y ago
  >Nuclear power plants usually dump their tertiary cooling water into the ocean The heated water from a power plant can actually provide a refuge for manatees and other wildlife that prefer warm water during cold winter. They're actually known as good fishing spots in Florida!
- 10y ago

ThrustVectoring 10y ago

>Isn't marine biology highly sensitive to heat pollution? The ocean is really, really big.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

stcredzero 10y ago

Essentially, I think it makes sense to get better at solar than to have Steve Zissou as a server admin. 1) In the original article, these server farms would be remote administration only. 2) Such facilities would make the secret construction of one's James Bond Villain underwater base much, much easier. (Wouldn't Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, and Peter Thiel all make great Bond villains?)

dmourati 10y ago
Don't forget Larry Ellison, the original tech CEO-cum-Bond Villain http://www.josephrosenfeld.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Larry-Ellison-Getty-1.jpg http://www.josephrosenfeld.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/La...
wsinks 10y ago
Kim DotCom needs a good place that is in international waters so he doesn't get extradited. Villains are sometimes just victims of their circumstances and trying to survive. Elon and co are the secret villains.
- stcredzero 10y ago
  Villains are sometimes just victims of their circumstances and trying to survive. Julius Caesar is the quintessential example of someone who becomes something just out of trying to survive. He was a hero to many and a villain to many as well. I wish more villains were written that way.
Ntrails 10y ago
>Wouldn't Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, and Peter Thiel all make great Bond villains? You know if Elon Musk tried to take over the world as a benevolent dictator I'm not entirely sure I'd fight against it...
- megous 10y ago
  Lord Acton comes to mind.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

WalterBright 10y ago

Consider that there are many underwater volcanos. A data center would be negligible.

08-15 10y ago

> I think it makes sense to get better at solar Then why don't you "get better at solar" and become rich in the process? What did you say, it's too hard, practically impossible? Yeah, life's a bitch, isn't it?