5 ms·

And how long do monkeys live again? That is not to say it is a bad idea, just that you do not present any evidence that grains are somehow bad. In fact, withou

by rue 16y ago

And how long do monkeys live again? That is not to say it is a bad idea, just that you do not present any evidence that grains are somehow bad. In fact, without considering all the other variables, one could just as well argue that grains are fantastically good for humans.

Daniel_Newby 16y ago
The archaeological and medical evidence (celiac disease) suggests that humans are not especially well adapted to eating cereal grains. That does not mean they are entirely bad, just that their hidden costs are relatively more likely to be whimsical and unpleasant.
- rue 16y ago
  And what do widely present allergies to pea- and other nuts, peas, carrots, tomatoes, citrus fruit, fish or shellfish (among others) tell us?
  - elblanco 16y ago
    Don't forget eggs, bananas, peaches (and relatives), onions, carrots, etc. (include most foods, yes I've known people with fantastically, life threatening, sensitive allergies to these foods). One of my favorites is the genetic differences over perception of the herb coriander. Some percentage of people hate it because it tastes like soap. While the rest don't taste any soapy taste at all and find it to be a pleasant seasoning. People often make the mistake of conflating "evolved diet=good for you" with "ready availability of foodstuffs". Chimps will also happily eat a pile of steak and a milkshake if you give it to them. Alaskan Salmon are fantastically good for us, but they don't exist at our evolutionary homestead. Some humans have consumed dairy for so long that they have developed lactose tolerance, and some eat such a high protein diet that large amounts of carbohydrates (refined or otherwise) leads to very high percentages of diabetes. IOW, not every human has the same genetic lineage, Coeliac disease is interesting for some variety of humans, but doesn't exist at all in other populations -- and even in the populations it does exist in, it has a pretty low frequency (generally less than 1% population in any area no matter the genetic predisposition of the population). Egg allergies (one of the cited foods in this thread as "evolution safe" are fantastically more common by comparison. It's the second most common childhood allergy in the U.S.
    - dgordon 16y ago
      Celiac disease makes up a tiny fraction of the cases of gluten intolerance, which as much as 20% of the population of, say, the USA may have. (Source: Dangerous Grains, by James Braly and Ron Hoggan) Then add in actual wheat allergies. That's a lot of people. So yes, people can have allergies to all sorts of things. I've been there (long story; currently it's only cow's milk I have to avoid) and it's not fun.
      - elblanco 16y ago
        I'm going to have to partially dispute you. I'll get to the point, but first let's define clearly, what is an allergy, an intolerance and what's coeliac disease. Some raw numbers, wheat (gluten) allergies affect less than 1% of the population (it's something like .48%). It's not something you can hide, you either swell up and stop breathing when you come in contact with it or you don't. It's actually hard to find in adults as most people grow out of it when they enter puberty. If you don't die within a short time from eating wheat (without treatment) due to an IgE antibody surge, you aren't allergic -- full stop. (yes, there are emergent allergies that occur later in life, gluten allergies are generally not considered to be in the class of those types of allergies). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IgE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IgE Wheat (gluten) intolerance is more prevalent. But so are most food intolerances. For example, it's generally considered that 3/4 of the adult population of the U.S. has a dairy intolerance. Intolerance != allergy. You can eat foods you are intolerant to. It might give you an upset stomach or bad gas or some such, maybe diarrhea and a really bad headache. But by those symptoms most of us are intolerant of high fiber diets, coffee and all forms of strong alcohol. It might be worse, like dizziness or some such, but if you don't have IgE antibodies in your system after contact with the suspect food it's not an allergy. In other words, probably 100% of the population is intolerant of some food some of the time. People often mistake "allergic" with "intolerant". Allergies are far more severe and critical than intolerance. Intolerance comes from a lack of an ability to process a given external agent due to some genetic predisposition -- like how many East Asians can't process alcohol properly or MSG makes my Aunt get a headache. Coeliac disease occurs in about .75% of the population (as identified so far). It is a distinct and different disease from gluten allergies and gluten intolerances. Coeliac disease is an autoimmune disorder where the body destroys the lining (the villi) of the intestine as a response to the presence of the byproduct of gluten after it's been improperly modified by a faulty enzyme causing an IgA antibody flareup in the gut. It's only now really being diagnosed as it is easily confused with other bowel diseases prior (like IBS or Ulcerative colitis or granulomatous among others). Recent IgA antibody tests do a pretty good job of positively identifying the disease (but you have to be on a gluten rich diet for it to work, otherwise you'll have no antibodies to test for!). The number may grow, but probably not much, even wildly high estimates put it at under 3% of very localized, genetically predisposed populations. Whatever the case, it presents as a chronic disease, not an allergy. You don't eat wheat, then blow up, stop breathing and die. Your intestine slowly rots away, you become malnourished and your feces turns white. Likewise, food intolerance != Coeliac disease != food allergy. The three things are different. You may as well bundle people with sun allergies and who have dry skin from harsh soap into your numbers if you are going to do that. The only common factor is that the causative agent is the same -- wheat. But even if you add up all the numbers of people with wheat allergies and people with coeliac disease, you likely end up with something less than 3-4% of the general population. "Dangerous Grains" is an interesting book. But if all you look for is a duck, suddenly everything starts to look like a duck. I'd caution anyone from self-diagnosing based on descriptions of layman oriented symptoms from a book written to popularize an interesting theory. Many things cause precisely the same symptoms as gluten intolerance (and visa-versa). Dangerous Grains, while an great way to popularize recent science with the layman, is not the same as medical science.

by rue 16y ago

Daniel_Newby 16y ago

The archaeological and medical evidence (celiac disease) suggests that humans are not especially well adapted to eating cereal grains. That does not mean they are entirely bad, just that their hidden costs are relatively more likely to be whimsical and unpleasant.

rue 16y ago
And what do widely present allergies to pea- and other nuts, peas, carrots, tomatoes, citrus fruit, fish or shellfish (among others) tell us?
- elblanco 16y ago
  Don't forget eggs, bananas, peaches (and relatives), onions, carrots, etc. (include most foods, yes I've known people with fantastically, life threatening, sensitive allergies to these foods). One of my favorites is the genetic differences over perception of the herb coriander. Some percentage of people hate it because it tastes like soap. While the rest don't taste any soapy taste at all and find it to be a pleasant seasoning. People often make the mistake of conflating "evolved diet=good for you" with "ready availability of foodstuffs". Chimps will also happily eat a pile of steak and a milkshake if you give it to them. Alaskan Salmon are fantastically good for us, but they don't exist at our evolutionary homestead. Some humans have consumed dairy for so long that they have developed lactose tolerance, and some eat such a high protein diet that large amounts of carbohydrates (refined or otherwise) leads to very high percentages of diabetes. IOW, not every human has the same genetic lineage, Coeliac disease is interesting for some variety of humans, but doesn't exist at all in other populations -- and even in the populations it does exist in, it has a pretty low frequency (generally less than 1% population in any area no matter the genetic predisposition of the population). Egg allergies (one of the cited foods in this thread as "evolution safe" are fantastically more common by comparison. It's the second most common childhood allergy in the U.S.
  - dgordon 16y ago
    Celiac disease makes up a tiny fraction of the cases of gluten intolerance, which as much as 20% of the population of, say, the USA may have. (Source: Dangerous Grains, by James Braly and Ron Hoggan) Then add in actual wheat allergies. That's a lot of people. So yes, people can have allergies to all sorts of things. I've been there (long story; currently it's only cow's milk I have to avoid) and it's not fun.
    - elblanco 16y ago
      I'm going to have to partially dispute you. I'll get to the point, but first let's define clearly, what is an allergy, an intolerance and what's coeliac disease. Some raw numbers, wheat (gluten) allergies affect less than 1% of the population (it's something like .48%). It's not something you can hide, you either swell up and stop breathing when you come in contact with it or you don't. It's actually hard to find in adults as most people grow out of it when they enter puberty. If you don't die within a short time from eating wheat (without treatment) due to an IgE antibody surge, you aren't allergic -- full stop. (yes, there are emergent allergies that occur later in life, gluten allergies are generally not considered to be in the class of those types of allergies). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IgE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IgE Wheat (gluten) intolerance is more prevalent. But so are most food intolerances. For example, it's generally considered that 3/4 of the adult population of the U.S. has a dairy intolerance. Intolerance != allergy. You can eat foods you are intolerant to. It might give you an upset stomach or bad gas or some such, maybe diarrhea and a really bad headache. But by those symptoms most of us are intolerant of high fiber diets, coffee and all forms of strong alcohol. It might be worse, like dizziness or some such, but if you don't have IgE antibodies in your system after contact with the suspect food it's not an allergy. In other words, probably 100% of the population is intolerant of some food some of the time. People often mistake "allergic" with "intolerant". Allergies are far more severe and critical than intolerance. Intolerance comes from a lack of an ability to process a given external agent due to some genetic predisposition -- like how many East Asians can't process alcohol properly or MSG makes my Aunt get a headache. Coeliac disease occurs in about .75% of the population (as identified so far). It is a distinct and different disease from gluten allergies and gluten intolerances. Coeliac disease is an autoimmune disorder where the body destroys the lining (the villi) of the intestine as a response to the presence of the byproduct of gluten after it's been improperly modified by a faulty enzyme causing an IgA antibody flareup in the gut. It's only now really being diagnosed as it is easily confused with other bowel diseases prior (like IBS or Ulcerative colitis or granulomatous among others). Recent IgA antibody tests do a pretty good job of positively identifying the disease (but you have to be on a gluten rich diet for it to work, otherwise you'll have no antibodies to test for!). The number may grow, but probably not much, even wildly high estimates put it at under 3% of very localized, genetically predisposed populations. Whatever the case, it presents as a chronic disease, not an allergy. You don't eat wheat, then blow up, stop breathing and die. Your intestine slowly rots away, you become malnourished and your feces turns white. Likewise, food intolerance != Coeliac disease != food allergy. The three things are different. You may as well bundle people with sun allergies and who have dry skin from harsh soap into your numbers if you are going to do that. The only common factor is that the causative agent is the same -- wheat. But even if you add up all the numbers of people with wheat allergies and people with coeliac disease, you likely end up with something less than 3-4% of the general population. "Dangerous Grains" is an interesting book. But if all you look for is a duck, suddenly everything starts to look like a duck. I'd caution anyone from self-diagnosing based on descriptions of layman oriented symptoms from a book written to popularize an interesting theory. Many things cause precisely the same symptoms as gluten intolerance (and visa-versa). Dangerous Grains, while an great way to popularize recent science with the layman, is not the same as medical science.