5 ms·

> It's not at all clear how the researcher in the article makes the leap Maybe because this article is a summary for popular consumption and presents conclusio

by Steko 10y ago

> It's not at all clear how the researcher in the article makes the leap Maybe because this article is a summary for popular consumption and presents conclusions instead of every step that leads to them?

kirkules 10y ago
Why is this supposed to be a way to deflect criticism? Is popular consumption of assertions that are unverified, or difficult for a reader to verify, a good thing?
- Steko 10y ago
  > Is popular consumption of assertions that are unverified, or difficult for a reader to verify, a good thing? Yes, that's the whole point of summarizing expertise for lay readers and it's common and expected. The idea that it isn't strikes me as a symptom of engineers disease. When I read an article about any technical subject the assertions in there are basically never verifiable in the article alone; people with more serious questions can presumably go and look at the actual research that's being published that the article is reporting on.
ekianjo 10y ago
So you are saying it's ok to have badly written articles?
- Steko 10y ago
  I'm saying it's ok to have shorter articles that don't have the detail every reader might want. I'm saying it's not badly written just because it's not a comprehensive academic review that answers every single possible question every reader might have.
  - ekianjo 10y ago
    shorter articles without any details is exactly The problem with most fast food style articles. An article should invite thinking, not suppress it.
mikekchar 10y ago
This is likely to sound a bit reactionary, but hopefully it will help some people. In my estimation, the Japan Times exists to perpetuate a certain stereotype of Japan to the west. I suspect that it's not so much that the editorial staff holds these views personally, rather that it is lucrative to pander to pre-existing feelings toward Japan. Remember that this is primarily an English language newspaper. Japanese people generally do not read it. If you use the Japan Times as your primary source of information about Japan, I suspect that you will come away with the impression that Japan is a xenophobic, corrupt, authoritarian, misogynist country that is on the verge of financial collapse. While there is some truth behind these things, the Japan Times has a way of presenting the information such that if you already hold this view, confirmation bias will very satisfyingly kick in. Why do I mention this WRT to this article (apart from the fact that it is published in the Japan Times)? Because, as far as I know, nobody ever doubted that Japan in the Nara time frame had foreigners living in Japan. Just look at the Wikipedia page for the Nara period. Anyone who has ever been to Nara will have seen the evidence for themselves. Nara was not just open to foreign cultures, it was aggressively adopting them (especially Chinese culture). The fact that there was a Persian living in Japan at the time is interesting, but hardly mind blowing. So why on earth would you publish this article? To provide a contrast for readers -- Wow, Japan wasn't always xenophobic! I wonder when it started? Perhaps I'm jaded, but that's what I see here. The original question is a good one, because it tries to probe the intent of the original research, rather than to accept the presentation of the editing staff at face value.
- Steko 10y ago
  Your comment assumes that the Japan Times coverage is exceptional but I didn't find the Yomiuri Shimbun's very different and the ideas you object to and want to attribute to the Japan Times slant seem to be consistent with direct quotes from the researcher. > nobody ever doubted that Japan in the Nara time frame had foreigners living in Japan Actual claim is: "this is the first time a person as far away as Persia was known to have worked in Japan" Seem like an important difference. > Just look at the Wikipedia page for the Nara period... Anyone who has ever been to Nara I'm guessing Akihiro Watanabe of the Nara National Research Institute for Cultural Properties has both been to Nara and is as familiar with the place as the average reader of the English wiki article. He apparently holds these views you ridicule as nothing so much as Japan Times editorializing. > The fact that there was a Persian living in Japan at the time is interesting, but hardly mind blowing. The idea that the article claims it's "mind blowing" seems like a straw man. > So why on earth would you publish this article? Probably because the Nara National Research Institute for Cultural Properties had a press release and it seemed like an interesting item. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
blackbagboys 10y ago
I think this is an excessively charitable interpretation. The researcher draws a direct link between this rather limited bit of evidence and his sweeping conclusion, not even bothering to preface it with something along the lines of "Along with other archaeological evidence, this suggests...". It's possible he was misquoted or gave additional context that was excised from the article, but then the writer is at fault for writing an article that leaves out crucial details.

by Steko 10y ago

kirkules 10y ago

Why is this supposed to be a way to deflect criticism? Is popular consumption of assertions that are unverified, or difficult for a reader to verify, a good thing?

Steko 10y ago
> Is popular consumption of assertions that are unverified, or difficult for a reader to verify, a good thing? Yes, that's the whole point of summarizing expertise for lay readers and it's common and expected. The idea that it isn't strikes me as a symptom of engineers disease. When I read an article about any technical subject the assertions in there are basically never verifiable in the article alone; people with more serious questions can presumably go and look at the actual research that's being published that the article is reporting on.

ekianjo 10y ago

So you are saying it's ok to have badly written articles?

Steko 10y ago
I'm saying it's ok to have shorter articles that don't have the detail every reader might want. I'm saying it's not badly written just because it's not a comprehensive academic review that answers every single possible question every reader might have.
- ekianjo 10y ago
  shorter articles without any details is exactly The problem with most fast food style articles. An article should invite thinking, not suppress it.

mikekchar 10y ago

This is likely to sound a bit reactionary, but hopefully it will help some people. In my estimation, the Japan Times exists to perpetuate a certain stereotype of Japan to the west. I suspect that it's not so much that the editorial staff holds these views personally, rather that it is lucrative to pander to pre-existing feelings toward Japan. Remember that this is primarily an English language newspaper. Japanese people generally do not read it. If you use the Japan Times as your primary source of information about Japan, I suspect that you will come away with the impression that Japan is a xenophobic, corrupt, authoritarian, misogynist country that is on the verge of financial collapse. While there is some truth behind these things, the Japan Times has a way of presenting the information such that if you already hold this view, confirmation bias will very satisfyingly kick in. Why do I mention this WRT to this article (apart from the fact that it is published in the Japan Times)? Because, as far as I know, nobody ever doubted that Japan in the Nara time frame had foreigners living in Japan. Just look at the Wikipedia page for the Nara period. Anyone who has ever been to Nara will have seen the evidence for themselves. Nara was not just open to foreign cultures, it was aggressively adopting them (especially Chinese culture). The fact that there was a Persian living in Japan at the time is interesting, but hardly mind blowing. So why on earth would you publish this article? To provide a contrast for readers -- Wow, Japan wasn't always xenophobic! I wonder when it started? Perhaps I'm jaded, but that's what I see here. The original question is a good one, because it tries to probe the intent of the original research, rather than to accept the presentation of the editing staff at face value.

Steko 10y ago
Your comment assumes that the Japan Times coverage is exceptional but I didn't find the Yomiuri Shimbun's very different and the ideas you object to and want to attribute to the Japan Times slant seem to be consistent with direct quotes from the researcher. > nobody ever doubted that Japan in the Nara time frame had foreigners living in Japan Actual claim is: "this is the first time a person as far away as Persia was known to have worked in Japan" Seem like an important difference. > Just look at the Wikipedia page for the Nara period... Anyone who has ever been to Nara I'm guessing Akihiro Watanabe of the Nara National Research Institute for Cultural Properties has both been to Nara and is as familiar with the place as the average reader of the English wiki article. He apparently holds these views you ridicule as nothing so much as Japan Times editorializing. > The fact that there was a Persian living in Japan at the time is interesting, but hardly mind blowing. The idea that the article claims it's "mind blowing" seems like a straw man. > So why on earth would you publish this article? Probably because the Nara National Research Institute for Cultural Properties had a press release and it seemed like an interesting item. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

blackbagboys 10y ago

I think this is an excessively charitable interpretation. The researcher draws a direct link between this rather limited bit of evidence and his sweeping conclusion, not even bothering to preface it with something along the lines of "Along with other archaeological evidence, this suggests...". It's possible he was misquoted or gave additional context that was excised from the article, but then the writer is at fault for writing an article that leaves out crucial details.