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> Right now the entire national government is run by people who have no trouble talking about these things, and much worse. You seem to be implying that such q

> Right now the entire national government is run by people who have no trouble talking about these things, and much worse. You seem to be implying that such questions are inherently immoral, and that's exactly the kind of sentiment that I challenged in my original comment. You can't demonize people for wanting to ask legitimate questions and have legitimate discussions. There are difficult questions and there are bad questions. There IS a difference. This question is bad: "Why do black people think their lives matter?" This question is difficult, but not bad: "Is the Black Lives Matter movement doing good?"

mikeash 10y ago
Consider that as "much worse" from the perspective of those who see these topics as bad. The people currently in power are more than happy to talk about murdering the families of terrorists and torturing suspects for information. If they were ever to express any resistance about discussing whether Islam is an inherently bad belief system, it would only be because they thought the answer was clearly "yes." When the whole national government is run by people like that, I can't understand this idea that topics such as you mention are somehow off-limits.
mcphage 10y ago
> You can't demonize people for wanting to ask legitimate questions and have legitimate discussions. You also can't claim that merely asking those questions will lead to demonization or ostracism, since we recently freely elected a leader who asks such questions.
- spaethnl 10y ago
  Electing Trump doesn't contradict OPs perception. Just because Trump won doesn't mean everyone is surrounded by Trump supporters. In fact, I am pretty left-leaning, as are most of my friends, co-workers, social-circle, and neighborhood.. Trump is not popular in the context of my life. However, I don't agree with all of the left dogma. While I can talk frankly about my criticisms of those topics with close friends, even polite and genuine questioning of some left-dogma has been met with immediate vitriol by otherwise friendly acquaintances, despite having not made any statement of judgement, and otherwise agreeing on most topics! If you grovel down and frame your discussion as "I am dumb, educate me!" they are willing to have a happy discussion where they tell you their opinion. On the other hand, if you are mildly informed and frame it as "I question a few things and want to discuss for introspection's sake", you are in for a dismissive discussion. Scorning introspection is very unhealthy.
  - mcphage 10y ago
    Knowing people who don't respond well to discussing controversial ideas is irrelevant—I have no idea who you know, so I can't make any claims about what they will or won't allow. But is discussing controversial opinions holding people back? Clearly, the answer is no.
  - mikeash 10y ago
    There are people who will freak out if you question the existence of a deity, or propose that maybe climate change isn't entirely a leftist hoax, or that a Prius battery will last more than five years. That doesn't mean these topics are off limits in general.
the_gastropod 10y ago
I understand your point. We're in a very polarized political environment, and I think it's important to recognize the context buried in questions like "Is the Black Lives Matter movement doing good?" It's suspicious sounding on its face, without any specifics or nuance given. There's a LOT of hatred toward the BLM movement that is completely indefensible (e.g., applauding running over BLM protesters in the street, or accusing them of inciting violence). BLM is not beyond criticism. If you have a something to critique, critique it. On its face, "Is Black Lives Matter doing good?" smells a lot like "I think BLM is bad". And that is likely to be met with an unpleasant response.

mikeash 10y ago

Consider that as "much worse" from the perspective of those who see these topics as bad. The people currently in power are more than happy to talk about murdering the families of terrorists and torturing suspects for information. If they were ever to express any resistance about discussing whether Islam is an inherently bad belief system, it would only be because they thought the answer was clearly "yes." When the whole national government is run by people like that, I can't understand this idea that topics such as you mention are somehow off-limits.

mcphage 10y ago

> You can't demonize people for wanting to ask legitimate questions and have legitimate discussions. You also can't claim that merely asking those questions will lead to demonization or ostracism, since we recently freely elected a leader who asks such questions.

spaethnl 10y ago
Electing Trump doesn't contradict OPs perception. Just because Trump won doesn't mean everyone is surrounded by Trump supporters. In fact, I am pretty left-leaning, as are most of my friends, co-workers, social-circle, and neighborhood.. Trump is not popular in the context of my life. However, I don't agree with all of the left dogma. While I can talk frankly about my criticisms of those topics with close friends, even polite and genuine questioning of some left-dogma has been met with immediate vitriol by otherwise friendly acquaintances, despite having not made any statement of judgement, and otherwise agreeing on most topics! If you grovel down and frame your discussion as "I am dumb, educate me!" they are willing to have a happy discussion where they tell you their opinion. On the other hand, if you are mildly informed and frame it as "I question a few things and want to discuss for introspection's sake", you are in for a dismissive discussion. Scorning introspection is very unhealthy.
- mcphage 10y ago
  Knowing people who don't respond well to discussing controversial ideas is irrelevant—I have no idea who you know, so I can't make any claims about what they will or won't allow. But is discussing controversial opinions holding people back? Clearly, the answer is no.
- mikeash 10y ago
  There are people who will freak out if you question the existence of a deity, or propose that maybe climate change isn't entirely a leftist hoax, or that a Prius battery will last more than five years. That doesn't mean these topics are off limits in general.

the_gastropod 10y ago

I understand your point. We're in a very polarized political environment, and I think it's important to recognize the context buried in questions like "Is the Black Lives Matter movement doing good?" It's suspicious sounding on its face, without any specifics or nuance given. There's a LOT of hatred toward the BLM movement that is completely indefensible (e.g., applauding running over BLM protesters in the street, or accusing them of inciting violence). BLM is not beyond criticism. If you have a something to critique, critique it. On its face, "Is Black Lives Matter doing good?" smells a lot like "I think BLM is bad". And that is likely to be met with an unpleasant response.