4 ms·

And what if life isn't as black and white as you seem to believe it is?

darkmouth 10y ago
What is not black an white about global warming or evolution? What is not black and white about abortion? What is not black and white about refugees fleeing war? What is not black and white about LGBT rights?
- interfixus 10y ago
  Everything.
- Cookingboy 10y ago
  I"m sorry, if you think it's black and white about abortion then you are as close minded as the worst Trump supporters. Do you think abortion for no reason at all 3 days before birth is the same as abortion within 30 days of pregnancy for the health reason of the mother? Is it black and white or different shades of gray?
  - freehunter 10y ago
    There is a black and white defining line that is very commonly used and everyone can accept exists: birth. There is before the moment of birth and there is after the moment of birth. Termination before that date is called abortion, termination after that date is called murder. Very clear defining line. To put it another, slightly less controversial way: do you agree that a 17 year and 11 month old teenager is the same as a 13 year old teenager? In the eyes of the law, they both have the same legal status: minors. It doesn't matter than in 30 days one of them will be an adult. They haven't hit that black and white dividing line set in the law. I would also like to point out that no one has ever had an abortion "for no reason at all" and shame on you for trying to squeeze that one in there.
    - jstimpfle 10y ago
      You are confusing what the current law is, with what the law could, or should be, based on accepted moral values.
      - freehunter 10y ago
        Leglislating on moral values is incredibly dangerous. Remember that a lot of people want their religion to be the official religion because they have better moral values. Remember that a lot of people want gay marriage to be banned because of their moral values. Remember that a lot of people want black people to have fewer rights because of their moral values. We constantly fight against legislation on moral values, because morals change dramatically over time. Legislation based on resolving actual damage is much longer lasting, and there are plenty of pro-choice arguments that are based on mitigating or eliminating actual damage.
        jstimpfle 10y ago
        You are confusing morality with "unreflected belief system". Morality is the separation of right and wrong. There are of course different ways to build moral systems, but it's fair to say that pretty much all try to "resolve actual damage", whatever that means. When I say "accepted moral values", I mean just that - the values that we as a society can agree on. Come on, that wasn't so hard.
        freehunter 10y ago
        In the early part of the 20th century, accepted moral values (the values that society could agree on) did not include voting rights for blacks or women. Our society does not always reflect absolute right or wrong. Here is a straw man for you if you need the point made a little stronger and a little more ridiculous: what you're advocating for is that owning human beings, treating blacks as less than human, keeping them from voting, etc was right and was a completely moral act. I mean it was legal, and most everyone agreed with it. A lot of Germans agreed with the Nazi's treatment of Jews, too. Hell even Americans did when we locked the Japanese-Americans in internment camps. Was that morally right? Because society agreed on it? Or maybe subjective moral opinions of the day aren't the best reasons to take away people's freedoms.
- lowpro 10y ago
  The solutions. The solutions are not black and white. Believe it or not, some on the right actually agree with the left on many social issues, but the problem becomes how to realistically solve them. Fixing things costs money, and many on the right (or the rust belt who voted right this election) would rather try and fix their economic problems now then solve global warming which doesn't have a clear solution and might not even be possible as China and other large manufactung nations don't oblige by the same standards as we do (thus why in many Chinese cities people have a very hard time breathing). Note that these aren't necessarily my views, but I live in the Midwest, I hear what a lot of classic Republicans are about and why people voted for Trump.
- mLuby 10y ago
  Wish you would be more precise about what you're saying. I'll do it for you: (Feel free to quibble about my exact wording.) global warming: long-term economic interests should trump short-term economic interests. evolution: science should trump faith. abortion: pregnant women's rights should trump fetal rights. refugees fleeing war: generosity/compassion should trump safety, jobs, and taxes. LGBT rights: general human rights should trump straight cis-male rights. What I hope you can see is that rather than statements of fact, these political topics are actually ethical questions: what _should_ we do? Any time we're prescribing a best course of action for individuals or groups, there will be differences of opinion. Certain facts related to the arguments may be incontrovertible (humans _are_ changing the climate, evolution _is_ supported by evidence), but that doesn't mean the _should_ part that comes after evidence is also a matter of fact.
23443463453 10y ago
That's clearly deemed wrong-think then. Clearly. I say that tongue in cheek, but that's the point. Science has become a dogmatic pseudo-religion, not a method of inquiry and discovery. Human rights are those that align with radical preferences rather than principled ideals. And "lack of compassion for people who come from less fortunate countries" is a grotesquely glaring expression of the purely fatalist mentality that somehow America and Europe and even Australia, for that matter, somehow happened to fall into "fortune" by luck and not through Protestant work ethic that inspires to honor God through work and achievement and scientific investigation that shows reverence, respect, and closeness with God and his creation. I know that sounds lame to may here, but reality is that the values and culture and society are the parameters that define the outcomes. There is no fortune that rewarded western culture of European origin, also referred to as "white" culture; while somehow other cultures and societies are penalized. No one is really preventing others from adopting similar values and practices and culture beyond the constant whining and fatalist excuses made based on far gone, irrelevant, perceived ills. The Japanese adopted western ideals and values and it is precisely what propelled them to where they are. It is what the Chinese are doing, even though its through theft and fraud to get them where they are. It is not "fortune" that made the west what it is and such fatalist "others can only be successful by coming to western society" mentalities are actually quite racist as they essentially assume those others cannot achieve the same things. Is Silicon Valley the result of being fortunate? Where is the concern with states that are less fortunate within the USA? There is a lot more here that I don't even think such people even themselves realize. It really quite noticeably reeks of self-loathing, self-interest, subversion, sabotage, and deceit.

What is not black an white about global warming or evolution? What is not black and white about abortion? What is not black and white about refugees fleeing war? What is not black and white about LGBT rights?

interfixus 10y ago
Everything.
Cookingboy 10y ago
I"m sorry, if you think it's black and white about abortion then you are as close minded as the worst Trump supporters. Do you think abortion for no reason at all 3 days before birth is the same as abortion within 30 days of pregnancy for the health reason of the mother? Is it black and white or different shades of gray?
- freehunter 10y ago
  There is a black and white defining line that is very commonly used and everyone can accept exists: birth. There is before the moment of birth and there is after the moment of birth. Termination before that date is called abortion, termination after that date is called murder. Very clear defining line. To put it another, slightly less controversial way: do you agree that a 17 year and 11 month old teenager is the same as a 13 year old teenager? In the eyes of the law, they both have the same legal status: minors. It doesn't matter than in 30 days one of them will be an adult. They haven't hit that black and white dividing line set in the law. I would also like to point out that no one has ever had an abortion "for no reason at all" and shame on you for trying to squeeze that one in there.
  - jstimpfle 10y ago
    You are confusing what the current law is, with what the law could, or should be, based on accepted moral values.
    - freehunter 10y ago
      Leglislating on moral values is incredibly dangerous. Remember that a lot of people want their religion to be the official religion because they have better moral values. Remember that a lot of people want gay marriage to be banned because of their moral values. Remember that a lot of people want black people to have fewer rights because of their moral values. We constantly fight against legislation on moral values, because morals change dramatically over time. Legislation based on resolving actual damage is much longer lasting, and there are plenty of pro-choice arguments that are based on mitigating or eliminating actual damage.
      - jstimpfle 10y ago
        You are confusing morality with "unreflected belief system". Morality is the separation of right and wrong. There are of course different ways to build moral systems, but it's fair to say that pretty much all try to "resolve actual damage", whatever that means. When I say "accepted moral values", I mean just that - the values that we as a society can agree on. Come on, that wasn't so hard.
        freehunter 10y ago
        In the early part of the 20th century, accepted moral values (the values that society could agree on) did not include voting rights for blacks or women. Our society does not always reflect absolute right or wrong. Here is a straw man for you if you need the point made a little stronger and a little more ridiculous: what you're advocating for is that owning human beings, treating blacks as less than human, keeping them from voting, etc was right and was a completely moral act. I mean it was legal, and most everyone agreed with it. A lot of Germans agreed with the Nazi's treatment of Jews, too. Hell even Americans did when we locked the Japanese-Americans in internment camps. Was that morally right? Because society agreed on it? Or maybe subjective moral opinions of the day aren't the best reasons to take away people's freedoms.
lowpro 10y ago
The solutions. The solutions are not black and white. Believe it or not, some on the right actually agree with the left on many social issues, but the problem becomes how to realistically solve them. Fixing things costs money, and many on the right (or the rust belt who voted right this election) would rather try and fix their economic problems now then solve global warming which doesn't have a clear solution and might not even be possible as China and other large manufactung nations don't oblige by the same standards as we do (thus why in many Chinese cities people have a very hard time breathing). Note that these aren't necessarily my views, but I live in the Midwest, I hear what a lot of classic Republicans are about and why people voted for Trump.
mLuby 10y ago
Wish you would be more precise about what you're saying. I'll do it for you: (Feel free to quibble about my exact wording.) global warming: long-term economic interests should trump short-term economic interests. evolution: science should trump faith. abortion: pregnant women's rights should trump fetal rights. refugees fleeing war: generosity/compassion should trump safety, jobs, and taxes. LGBT rights: general human rights should trump straight cis-male rights. What I hope you can see is that rather than statements of fact, these political topics are actually ethical questions: what _should_ we do? Any time we're prescribing a best course of action for individuals or groups, there will be differences of opinion. Certain facts related to the arguments may be incontrovertible (humans _are_ changing the climate, evolution _is_ supported by evidence), but that doesn't mean the _should_ part that comes after evidence is also a matter of fact.

23443463453 10y ago

That's clearly deemed wrong-think then. Clearly. I say that tongue in cheek, but that's the point. Science has become a dogmatic pseudo-religion, not a method of inquiry and discovery. Human rights are those that align with radical preferences rather than principled ideals. And "lack of compassion for people who come from less fortunate countries" is a grotesquely glaring expression of the purely fatalist mentality that somehow America and Europe and even Australia, for that matter, somehow happened to fall into "fortune" by luck and not through Protestant work ethic that inspires to honor God through work and achievement and scientific investigation that shows reverence, respect, and closeness with God and his creation. I know that sounds lame to may here, but reality is that the values and culture and society are the parameters that define the outcomes. There is no fortune that rewarded western culture of European origin, also referred to as "white" culture; while somehow other cultures and societies are penalized. No one is really preventing others from adopting similar values and practices and culture beyond the constant whining and fatalist excuses made based on far gone, irrelevant, perceived ills. The Japanese adopted western ideals and values and it is precisely what propelled them to where they are. It is what the Chinese are doing, even though its through theft and fraud to get them where they are. It is not "fortune" that made the west what it is and such fatalist "others can only be successful by coming to western society" mentalities are actually quite racist as they essentially assume those others cannot achieve the same things. Is Silicon Valley the result of being fortunate? Where is the concern with states that are less fortunate within the USA? There is a lot more here that I don't even think such people even themselves realize. It really quite noticeably reeks of self-loathing, self-interest, subversion, sabotage, and deceit.