7 ms·

Except that the contrarian views frequently turn out to be lies, and I can't spend all my time debating lies. Please suggest a contrarian view that's worth disc

by sxcurry 10y ago

Except that the contrarian views frequently turn out to be lies, and I can't spend all my time debating lies. Please suggest a contrarian view that's worth discussing.

Yhippa 10y ago
> Except that the contrarian views frequently turn out to be lies What do you mean by this?
- darkmouth 10y ago
  global warming, evolution, abortion, birth control, LGBT, Size of military, refugees
  - pklausler 10y ago
    You forgot crime rates, taxation relative to other developed countries, the causes of the Civil War, and whether there really are footprints on the Moon.
  - baseten 10y ago
    degree of earth curvature, extent of lizard population in federal government, which party gets to sacrifice infants to baal this month, who controls the weather on tuesdays, etc.
  - dustinmr 10y ago
    If you don't see how these comments prove his points, you should reread over and over and over again until you do. Every analysis of "How the hell did he win?" that I've seen has basically been that no one else listened to the people outside the population centers, or outside mainstream thought. He did and crafted a campaign based on it. So listen. Just because you disagree or think they are lies, or whatever, doesn't mean you won't learn something about why those people think the way they do. No one is saying you have to agree. Credit to the author for actually listening.
- skylan_q 10y ago
  It means what it says it means. He's in an echo chamber and well-grounded counterfactuals are no longer worth considering anymore.
  - sxcurry 10y ago
    Funny, nobody has yet suggested what these well grounded counterfactuals are. And I don't mean vague "freedom of speech on campus" discussions. I'd like to hear about some really well-grounded counterfactuals that are being shouted down.
- sxcurry 10y ago
  Evolution, vaccination, global warming, coal, etc, etc
CM30 10y ago
How about that it's not right to beat someone up because of their political views? Or that freedom of speech applies to unpopular speech just as much as that which you agree with? Those are now unpopular, contrarian views at universities and what not.
- dlp211 10y ago
  I agree with your former argument/question, but this applies to a small fraction of people on both sides, but unfortunately causes us to paint with a broad brush. As to free speech, I assume you are talking about people like Milo, to which I will say that he has never had his free speech violated. Free speech is not an entitlement to a forum, it is a right that guarantees that the government will not interfere with your speech, but even that has some limitations.
  - DashRattlesnake 10y ago
    > Free speech is not an entitlement to a forum, it is a right that guarantees that the government will not interfere with your speech, but even that has some limitations. That's a pretty narrow and legalistic idea that's often deployed to excuse some pretty terrible behavior by private parties. Yes, it's accurate if you're talking legalistically about First Amendment free speech rights, but there's a more general principle of free exchange of ideas that's clearly violated when protesters try to shut down events they disagree with. It's that broader idea that I believe people are actually referring to when they talk about "free speech" in these contexts.
    - dlp211 10y ago
      Do those protesters not have autonomy to choose what they hear or whom may speak at their organization? Are they not allowed to say that an idea has no purpose except to poison and thus should not be uttered? You may not agree with the protesters, but they too have rights and autonomy.
      - CM30 10y ago
wheaties 10y ago
How many studies can we find where the same data was used to come to completely different conclusions? More than you might think.
DashRattlesnake 10y ago
>> Substitute "Silicon Valley" for any major liberal enclaves, like universities and cities...However I feel like I get shouted down every time I merely bring up a contrarian view.... > Except that the contrarian views frequently turn out to be lies, and I can't spend all my time debating lies. Please suggest a contrarian view that's worth discussing. You illustrated his point perfectly: you tried to shoot him down by equating "contrarian views" with "lies," without proof or even example; then turned around and demanded that he back up his assertions in a way you were unwilling to.
christophilus 10y ago
I know some women who are regularly derided for pointing out that the founder of Planned Parenthood was a eugenicist who wanted to reduce the number of African Americans in the US.
- croon 10y ago
  Maybe because it's irrelevant? Regardless if Michael Jackson was the person characterized by tabloids, let's say he was, does that in any way affect his music? Regardless of what you think of the Palmer Luckey media debacle, does it have any bearing on the Oculus product(s)? Judge the man/person by his actions. But products aren't variable by their creator, they're just a product, either good or bad on only it's own merit. Do you eat Kellogg's products? Do you care what person its founder was?

by sxcurry 10y ago

Except that the contrarian views frequently turn out to be lies, and I can't spend all my time debating lies. Please suggest a contrarian view that's worth discussing.

Yhippa 10y ago

> Except that the contrarian views frequently turn out to be lies What do you mean by this?

darkmouth 10y ago
global warming, evolution, abortion, birth control, LGBT, Size of military, refugees
- pklausler 10y ago
  You forgot crime rates, taxation relative to other developed countries, the causes of the Civil War, and whether there really are footprints on the Moon.
- baseten 10y ago
  degree of earth curvature, extent of lizard population in federal government, which party gets to sacrifice infants to baal this month, who controls the weather on tuesdays, etc.
- dustinmr 10y ago
  If you don't see how these comments prove his points, you should reread over and over and over again until you do. Every analysis of "How the hell did he win?" that I've seen has basically been that no one else listened to the people outside the population centers, or outside mainstream thought. He did and crafted a campaign based on it. So listen. Just because you disagree or think they are lies, or whatever, doesn't mean you won't learn something about why those people think the way they do. No one is saying you have to agree. Credit to the author for actually listening.
skylan_q 10y ago
It means what it says it means. He's in an echo chamber and well-grounded counterfactuals are no longer worth considering anymore.
- sxcurry 10y ago
  Funny, nobody has yet suggested what these well grounded counterfactuals are. And I don't mean vague "freedom of speech on campus" discussions. I'd like to hear about some really well-grounded counterfactuals that are being shouted down.
sxcurry 10y ago
Evolution, vaccination, global warming, coal, etc, etc

CM30 10y ago

How about that it's not right to beat someone up because of their political views? Or that freedom of speech applies to unpopular speech just as much as that which you agree with? Those are now unpopular, contrarian views at universities and what not.

dlp211 10y ago
I agree with your former argument/question, but this applies to a small fraction of people on both sides, but unfortunately causes us to paint with a broad brush. As to free speech, I assume you are talking about people like Milo, to which I will say that he has never had his free speech violated. Free speech is not an entitlement to a forum, it is a right that guarantees that the government will not interfere with your speech, but even that has some limitations.
- DashRattlesnake 10y ago
  > Free speech is not an entitlement to a forum, it is a right that guarantees that the government will not interfere with your speech, but even that has some limitations. That's a pretty narrow and legalistic idea that's often deployed to excuse some pretty terrible behavior by private parties. Yes, it's accurate if you're talking legalistically about First Amendment free speech rights, but there's a more general principle of free exchange of ideas that's clearly violated when protesters try to shut down events they disagree with. It's that broader idea that I believe people are actually referring to when they talk about "free speech" in these contexts.
  - dlp211 10y ago
    Do those protesters not have autonomy to choose what they hear or whom may speak at their organization? Are they not allowed to say that an idea has no purpose except to poison and thus should not be uttered? You may not agree with the protesters, but they too have rights and autonomy.
    - CM30 10y ago

wheaties 10y ago

How many studies can we find where the same data was used to come to completely different conclusions? More than you might think.

DashRattlesnake 10y ago

>> Substitute "Silicon Valley" for any major liberal enclaves, like universities and cities...However I feel like I get shouted down every time I merely bring up a contrarian view.... > Except that the contrarian views frequently turn out to be lies, and I can't spend all my time debating lies. Please suggest a contrarian view that's worth discussing. You illustrated his point perfectly: you tried to shoot him down by equating "contrarian views" with "lies," without proof or even example; then turned around and demanded that he back up his assertions in a way you were unwilling to.

christophilus 10y ago

I know some women who are regularly derided for pointing out that the founder of Planned Parenthood was a eugenicist who wanted to reduce the number of African Americans in the US.

croon 10y ago
Maybe because it's irrelevant? Regardless if Michael Jackson was the person characterized by tabloids, let's say he was, does that in any way affect his music? Regardless of what you think of the Palmer Luckey media debacle, does it have any bearing on the Oculus product(s)? Judge the man/person by his actions. But products aren't variable by their creator, they're just a product, either good or bad on only it's own merit. Do you eat Kellogg's products? Do you care what person its founder was?