8 ms·

Sure, the fiber itself maybe cheap, but processing that fiber into different shapes still costs a fair amount of money. Carbon fiber layup is still a fairly lab

by gene-h 10y ago

Sure, the fiber itself maybe cheap, but processing that fiber into different shapes still costs a fair amount of money. Carbon fiber layup is still a fairly labor intensive and somewhat wasteful process.

jordanb 10y ago
Layup is very expensive and labor intensive yes. And most layup methods require expensive jigs. You also have to use expensive, stiff epoxy resin if you want to have the mechanical properties of carbon fiber. Fiberglass is typically laid up in cheaper polyester resin since glass fiber are stretchier than carbon fiber.
- JumpCrisscross 10y ago
  > Fiberglass is typically laid up in cheaper polyester resin since glass fiber are stretchier than carbon fiber Would you mind expanding on that? I'm curious around the barriers to mass-produced carbon fiber.
  - jordanb 10y ago
    Carbon fiber can be laid up in polyester resin but it doesn't make sense to not match capabilities between the resin and the reinforcement. A glass fiber/polyester panel will be no worse than a carbon fiber/polyester panel. So if you choose polyester you'd be a fool to use a reinforcement more expensive than glass fiber. So as a practical matter, the decision to use carbon fiber reinforcement implies the use of epoxy resin.
- discreteevent 10y ago
  Yes. I thought the article was going to be about layup when it said costs would plummet. Particularly I was thinking of carbon fibre bikes. Looks like this will have no effect on their cost. To make a bike you need a special mold/jig for each part for each bike size. These cost money to make so to scale out the process is expensive (I.e. to have a lot of workers producing bikes concurrently). With metal tubing you can just make a lot if it and then cut, bend and weld it. Every worker doesn't need an expensive jig. And like you said, just laying up the fibre on a jig is time consuming and manual. Anyway, they can make extremely light aluminium bikes now with really good ride characteristics and they won't break if you drop them the wrong way!
- ericcumbee 10y ago
  Are you familar with REAMS? it was supposed to be a better version of Carbon fiber that was a lot easier to layup and did not have to be Autoclaved. They were going to use it in the Nissan Delta Wing, but i think alot of that fell by the wayside when they elected to use the Monocoque from the Aston Marton AMR-1 rather than a bespoke tub. Never really heard much about it after that.
dingaling 10y ago
Lay-up is also environmentally sensitive. Bombardier spent a lot of money in trying to locate the Learjet 85 fuselage lay-up process in Mexico, instead of Belfast in the UK, only to find that the resulting parts were delaminating because the process had been developed for Belfast's climate and sea-level pressure. Eventually the 85 project was 'suspended', as it remains today. Unfortunately most of the staff at the Querétaro site were laid-off as a result.
- agumonkey 10y ago
  Crazy, I would never have imagined climate dependant industrial processes.. That said I just saw a talk yesterday about DNA folding and of course trying to replicate the experiment in a different lab caused a tenth of degree variation which voided the whole thing.
  - pja 10y ago
    Air conditioning was invented to try and stabilise the climate in factories to make industrial processes stable & less dependent on the external weather conditions. As well as simply stabilising the temperature, humidity also makes a big difference to some processes. Ireland is a damp place; it doesn’t surprise me that carbon fibre layup didn’t work in the same way in Mexico!
    - gsnedders 10y ago
      And with some industrial processes, the tiny variation in barometric pressure within air conditioned sites still causes problems.
  - wlll 10y ago
    Climate is one possible reason (as well as coal deposits) for the rise of the wealth and importance of Manchester, UK in the 1800s. There is a damp atmosphere that makes it great for processing cotton. It's also the where a fairly large printing company has it's central printing facility. Inside the main warehouse over tons of paper a fine mist if intermittently created, keeping the paper malleable. In a less damp environment this misting process might have to be intensified.
fudged71 10y ago
Have you seen this beauty? https://youtu.be/8fHdTSNoKao?t=28 https://youtu.be/8fHdTSNoKao?t=28

by gene-h 10y ago

jordanb 10y ago

Layup is very expensive and labor intensive yes. And most layup methods require expensive jigs. You also have to use expensive, stiff epoxy resin if you want to have the mechanical properties of carbon fiber. Fiberglass is typically laid up in cheaper polyester resin since glass fiber are stretchier than carbon fiber.

JumpCrisscross 10y ago
> Fiberglass is typically laid up in cheaper polyester resin since glass fiber are stretchier than carbon fiber Would you mind expanding on that? I'm curious around the barriers to mass-produced carbon fiber.
- jordanb 10y ago
  Carbon fiber can be laid up in polyester resin but it doesn't make sense to not match capabilities between the resin and the reinforcement. A glass fiber/polyester panel will be no worse than a carbon fiber/polyester panel. So if you choose polyester you'd be a fool to use a reinforcement more expensive than glass fiber. So as a practical matter, the decision to use carbon fiber reinforcement implies the use of epoxy resin.
discreteevent 10y ago
Yes. I thought the article was going to be about layup when it said costs would plummet. Particularly I was thinking of carbon fibre bikes. Looks like this will have no effect on their cost. To make a bike you need a special mold/jig for each part for each bike size. These cost money to make so to scale out the process is expensive (I.e. to have a lot of workers producing bikes concurrently). With metal tubing you can just make a lot if it and then cut, bend and weld it. Every worker doesn't need an expensive jig. And like you said, just laying up the fibre on a jig is time consuming and manual. Anyway, they can make extremely light aluminium bikes now with really good ride characteristics and they won't break if you drop them the wrong way!
ericcumbee 10y ago
Are you familar with REAMS? it was supposed to be a better version of Carbon fiber that was a lot easier to layup and did not have to be Autoclaved. They were going to use it in the Nissan Delta Wing, but i think alot of that fell by the wayside when they elected to use the Monocoque from the Aston Marton AMR-1 rather than a bespoke tub. Never really heard much about it after that.

dingaling 10y ago

Lay-up is also environmentally sensitive. Bombardier spent a lot of money in trying to locate the Learjet 85 fuselage lay-up process in Mexico, instead of Belfast in the UK, only to find that the resulting parts were delaminating because the process had been developed for Belfast's climate and sea-level pressure. Eventually the 85 project was 'suspended', as it remains today. Unfortunately most of the staff at the Querétaro site were laid-off as a result.

agumonkey 10y ago
Crazy, I would never have imagined climate dependant industrial processes.. That said I just saw a talk yesterday about DNA folding and of course trying to replicate the experiment in a different lab caused a tenth of degree variation which voided the whole thing.
- pja 10y ago
  Air conditioning was invented to try and stabilise the climate in factories to make industrial processes stable & less dependent on the external weather conditions. As well as simply stabilising the temperature, humidity also makes a big difference to some processes. Ireland is a damp place; it doesn’t surprise me that carbon fibre layup didn’t work in the same way in Mexico!
  - gsnedders 10y ago
    And with some industrial processes, the tiny variation in barometric pressure within air conditioned sites still causes problems.
- wlll 10y ago
  Climate is one possible reason (as well as coal deposits) for the rise of the wealth and importance of Manchester, UK in the 1800s. There is a damp atmosphere that makes it great for processing cotton. It's also the where a fairly large printing company has it's central printing facility. Inside the main warehouse over tons of paper a fine mist if intermittently created, keeping the paper malleable. In a less damp environment this misting process might have to be intensified.

fudged71 10y ago

Have you seen this beauty? https://youtu.be/8fHdTSNoKao?t=28 https://youtu.be/8fHdTSNoKao?t=28