6 ms·

It's a real detriment to UI, it costs you battery life, it's a distracting gimmick, and it adds $200 to the cost of your machine. And Apple will never give up

It's a real detriment to UI, it costs you battery life, it's a distracting gimmick, and it adds $200 to the cost of your machine. And Apple will never give up on it. Every Mac is going to be worse for years and years because of it. Enjoy.

r00fus 10y ago
If Apple keeps it, they will improve on it to the point where it doesn't suck.
- skyrw 10y ago
  The second that happens they will remove it in the following release.
- hpaavola 10y ago
  I don't believe that the fundamental issue can be fixed. Ironically "Touch Bar" is something you can't feel when you touch it. Real physical buttons guide your finger to the correct location if you miss them slightly. "Touch" buttons don't. To fix that, one would need to rework the whole OS and applications in such way that they don't use F-keys at all, but rather something else. So, fixing Touch Bar means rethinking OS and application shortcuts. I don't think average users really use F-buttons that much, but we developers generally do.
  - jbverschoor 10y ago
    Just wait until the force-touchbar and then the 3d-touchbar. I agree with the feedback, but I'm certain they will add this.
    - RugnirViking 10y ago
      A 3d, force, touchbar sounds awfully like just a row of buttons to me ;-)
  - mgkimsal 10y ago
    if there was even a way to just have the f-keys on all the time by default, that would have helped. Last I looked, that was not an option - you needed to hold down the fn key (or control?)
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - jrs95 10y ago
      You can actually, on a per application basis: http://m.imore.com/how-make-function-keys-default-touch-bar-display http://m.imore.com/how-make-function-keys-default-touch-bar-...
      - SomeHacker44 10y ago
        You can't, actually. This only works for some applications. None of my WINE apps, for example, can have this enabled. Apple failed.
        9935c101ab17a66 10y ago
        Couldn't WINE be updated to support this? Coming to the conclusion that Apple has 'failed' because function keys are not available in WINE is a bit of a leap.
      - mgkimsal 10y ago
        I don't want them on a 'per-application' basis. The older macs, you could have f-key 'default' with the other options activated by holding the FN key, or reverse it, so that the brightness/etc were default, and f-keys activated by holding down the FN key. There is no option to just have f-keys defaulted, with other touchbar stuff activated by FN key. For people who simply want standard f-keys as default all the time (like you could have in the previous macs), there is no option right now.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
routelastresort 10y ago
The good thing that can come of this would be the resurgence of the Linux desktop. Apple just crossed the line for me (<32GB, no SSD upgrade, messing with the keyboard). I'll miss the almost perfect trackpad, but there's no way I'll support these choices.
- dajohnson89 10y ago
  Resurgence? When was it ever popular? Iirc, market share right now is under 5%. I say this as pretty much a lifelong Linux desktop user. I've been waiting and hoping for it to take off, but.....
  - rbanffy 10y ago
    Macs took over some of the developer space that Linux laptops used to be in. As a usable Unix environment with excellent hardware, it's a solid investment.
- notalaser 10y ago
  Historically, the side effect this tends to have is that a lot of programmers flock to a new platform but bring the way they use and write programs with them. Fifteen years ago we ended up with CORBA- and Window Registry-like components bolted on top of Linux desktops. On the other hand, seeing how nowadays the Linux "community" is mostly a bunch of big cloud, automotive and IoT/vaporware companies, this could be the closest the Linux desktop has to salvation. So far, the attempts to bring elements of the OS X experience to the Linux desktop have been very... cargo cult, in the absence of a more forgiving word. Fetishizing design choices and simplicity has made it very unpleasant to deal with a modern Linux system. Many users of tiling-wm-and-terminal-only desktops don't do so "just" because it's the most efficient option, they do it because the alternatives are horrifyingly bad.
  - meddlepal 10y ago
    I wasn't aware the Linux desktop needed salvation. Maybe it needs salvation for non-technical end users but it's good to excellent for end-users whose primary use involve actually using Linux for what it's good at which is basically being a fully open OS and IDE for software and other engineers.
WillPostForFood 10y ago
With only a slightly smaller touchpad, Apple easily could have included a row of function keys, which are half height anyway. Then the touch bar would either be additive, or ignorable depending on one's attitude. But the trade-off makes it painful.
golergka 10y ago
> It's a real detriment to UI, it costs you battery life, it's a distracting gimmick, and it adds $200 to the cost of your machine. Apart from the battery thing, the same could be (and was) said about a mouse.

r00fus 10y ago

If Apple keeps it, they will improve on it to the point where it doesn't suck.

skyrw 10y ago
The second that happens they will remove it in the following release.
hpaavola 10y ago
I don't believe that the fundamental issue can be fixed. Ironically "Touch Bar" is something you can't feel when you touch it. Real physical buttons guide your finger to the correct location if you miss them slightly. "Touch" buttons don't. To fix that, one would need to rework the whole OS and applications in such way that they don't use F-keys at all, but rather something else. So, fixing Touch Bar means rethinking OS and application shortcuts. I don't think average users really use F-buttons that much, but we developers generally do.
- jbverschoor 10y ago
  Just wait until the force-touchbar and then the 3d-touchbar. I agree with the feedback, but I'm certain they will add this.
  - RugnirViking 10y ago
    A 3d, force, touchbar sounds awfully like just a row of buttons to me ;-)
- mgkimsal 10y ago
  if there was even a way to just have the f-keys on all the time by default, that would have helped. Last I looked, that was not an option - you needed to hold down the fn key (or control?)
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - jrs95 10y ago
    You can actually, on a per application basis: http://m.imore.com/how-make-function-keys-default-touch-bar-display http://m.imore.com/how-make-function-keys-default-touch-bar-...
    - SomeHacker44 10y ago
      You can't, actually. This only works for some applications. None of my WINE apps, for example, can have this enabled. Apple failed.
      - 9935c101ab17a66 10y ago
        Couldn't WINE be updated to support this? Coming to the conclusion that Apple has 'failed' because function keys are not available in WINE is a bit of a leap.
    - mgkimsal 10y ago
      I don't want them on a 'per-application' basis. The older macs, you could have f-key 'default' with the other options activated by holding the FN key, or reverse it, so that the brightness/etc were default, and f-keys activated by holding down the FN key. There is no option to just have f-keys defaulted, with other touchbar stuff activated by FN key. For people who simply want standard f-keys as default all the time (like you could have in the previous macs), there is no option right now.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]

routelastresort 10y ago

The good thing that can come of this would be the resurgence of the Linux desktop. Apple just crossed the line for me (<32GB, no SSD upgrade, messing with the keyboard). I'll miss the almost perfect trackpad, but there's no way I'll support these choices.

dajohnson89 10y ago
Resurgence? When was it ever popular? Iirc, market share right now is under 5%. I say this as pretty much a lifelong Linux desktop user. I've been waiting and hoping for it to take off, but.....
- rbanffy 10y ago
  Macs took over some of the developer space that Linux laptops used to be in. As a usable Unix environment with excellent hardware, it's a solid investment.
notalaser 10y ago
Historically, the side effect this tends to have is that a lot of programmers flock to a new platform but bring the way they use and write programs with them. Fifteen years ago we ended up with CORBA- and Window Registry-like components bolted on top of Linux desktops. On the other hand, seeing how nowadays the Linux "community" is mostly a bunch of big cloud, automotive and IoT/vaporware companies, this could be the closest the Linux desktop has to salvation. So far, the attempts to bring elements of the OS X experience to the Linux desktop have been very... cargo cult, in the absence of a more forgiving word. Fetishizing design choices and simplicity has made it very unpleasant to deal with a modern Linux system. Many users of tiling-wm-and-terminal-only desktops don't do so "just" because it's the most efficient option, they do it because the alternatives are horrifyingly bad.
- meddlepal 10y ago
  I wasn't aware the Linux desktop needed salvation. Maybe it needs salvation for non-technical end users but it's good to excellent for end-users whose primary use involve actually using Linux for what it's good at which is basically being a fully open OS and IDE for software and other engineers.

WillPostForFood 10y ago

With only a slightly smaller touchpad, Apple easily could have included a row of function keys, which are half height anyway. Then the touch bar would either be additive, or ignorable depending on one's attitude. But the trade-off makes it painful.

golergka 10y ago

> It's a real detriment to UI, it costs you battery life, it's a distracting gimmick, and it adds $200 to the cost of your machine. Apart from the battery thing, the same could be (and was) said about a mouse.