4 ms·

I took issue with the "I guess it is very common that women expect that kind of harassment", because it plays into sexist stereotypes. I think in these matters

I took issue with the "I guess it is very common that women expect that kind of harassment", because it plays into sexist stereotypes. I think in these matters )(sexism, racism, bias), it pays to be precise. How else can you counter bias? What if countless people told me they had been mugged by black people? Don't understand your comment about lines in the sand. What do you mean?

kevinburke 10y ago
A very large part of the problem is that claims of harassment are waved away, and the same people are allowed to harass again and again. There's a lot of evidence pointing to "believe women when they say they are harassed."
- facepalm 10y ago
  I didn't say anything about disbelieving any women - I take issue with simply "guessing" that stuff like that happens all the time. That is just confirming bias with bias, completely removed from reality. Apart from that, I wonder what evidence you are talking about? References? How often are claims waved away? Or is that just something you intuitively know? And by the way, people coming out in response to such an article is also just classic confirmation bias. You need to put stories in relation to the total workforce before you claim almost everybody gets harassed.
  - tomlock 10y ago
    I remember a thread a few months ago where said the twitter feed google had up for promoting working at google was evidence google wasn't interested in hiring male coders anymore. If only you applied such rigorous quantitative standards of evidence to your own claims.
    - facepalm 10y ago
      Huh - that Twitter feed obviously is tilted towards only showing women and PoCs as engineers. It is not just a "guess" - you can look at that feed and check for yourself. And at least you can come to a different conclusion than me, because I cited the source. With "I guess", it is just a reinforcing reference to already existing bias. (For reference, here is the feed: https://twitter.com/lifeatgoogle https://twitter.com/lifeatgoogle )
      - tomlock 10y ago
        I did look and we disagree. Perhaps you can quantify what you saw?
        facepalm 10y ago
        I'll give it a shot, going through the first 100 tweets or so counting men, women, skin colors, is that what you mean? Hope to get round to it later in the day. And btw I think it gives the impression they don't want to hire men, it doesn't prove that Google doesn't want to hire (white) men. But if they are interested in hiring white men, they might check the message they are sending out. For sure their reputation is so good that white men will probably still apply in droves, so whatever (same probably goes for women and PoCs, anyway). But in my opinion they will also drive away some people. (edited to add "in my opinion") And as I said - it is fine if you disagree, but at least there is something tangible to disagree on. That's different from simply playing into some stereotypes. Seriously, you are defending here the equivalent of "I have heard all blacks are criminals, and therefore it is true, no matter what you say". Wtf?
        tomlock 10y ago
        >But they will also drive away some people. What evidence do you have for this?
        facepalm 10y ago
        My feelings :-) Granted, that is not yet "some", only one, but with millions of white men on the planet, chances seem high others see it the same way. If you really want to nitpick, quantify my sentence with "in my opinion".
cbtacy 10y ago
Exactly. You don't understand. So stop talking and start listening to the women around you, yeah?
- facepalm 10y ago
  Which women? There were no women mentioned, just a guess that it happens often. There was one article by one woman that is the topic here. Afaik nobody claimed that her story is unbelievable.

kevinburke 10y ago

A very large part of the problem is that claims of harassment are waved away, and the same people are allowed to harass again and again. There's a lot of evidence pointing to "believe women when they say they are harassed."

facepalm 10y ago
I didn't say anything about disbelieving any women - I take issue with simply "guessing" that stuff like that happens all the time. That is just confirming bias with bias, completely removed from reality. Apart from that, I wonder what evidence you are talking about? References? How often are claims waved away? Or is that just something you intuitively know? And by the way, people coming out in response to such an article is also just classic confirmation bias. You need to put stories in relation to the total workforce before you claim almost everybody gets harassed.
- tomlock 10y ago
  I remember a thread a few months ago where said the twitter feed google had up for promoting working at google was evidence google wasn't interested in hiring male coders anymore. If only you applied such rigorous quantitative standards of evidence to your own claims.
  - facepalm 10y ago
    Huh - that Twitter feed obviously is tilted towards only showing women and PoCs as engineers. It is not just a "guess" - you can look at that feed and check for yourself. And at least you can come to a different conclusion than me, because I cited the source. With "I guess", it is just a reinforcing reference to already existing bias. (For reference, here is the feed: https://twitter.com/lifeatgoogle https://twitter.com/lifeatgoogle )
    - tomlock 10y ago
      I did look and we disagree. Perhaps you can quantify what you saw?
      - facepalm 10y ago
        I'll give it a shot, going through the first 100 tweets or so counting men, women, skin colors, is that what you mean? Hope to get round to it later in the day. And btw I think it gives the impression they don't want to hire men, it doesn't prove that Google doesn't want to hire (white) men. But if they are interested in hiring white men, they might check the message they are sending out. For sure their reputation is so good that white men will probably still apply in droves, so whatever (same probably goes for women and PoCs, anyway). But in my opinion they will also drive away some people. (edited to add "in my opinion") And as I said - it is fine if you disagree, but at least there is something tangible to disagree on. That's different from simply playing into some stereotypes. Seriously, you are defending here the equivalent of "I have heard all blacks are criminals, and therefore it is true, no matter what you say". Wtf?
        tomlock 10y ago
        >But they will also drive away some people. What evidence do you have for this?
        facepalm 10y ago
        My feelings :-) Granted, that is not yet "some", only one, but with millions of white men on the planet, chances seem high others see it the same way. If you really want to nitpick, quantify my sentence with "in my opinion".

cbtacy 10y ago

Exactly. You don't understand. So stop talking and start listening to the women around you, yeah?

facepalm 10y ago
Which women? There were no women mentioned, just a guess that it happens often. There was one article by one woman that is the topic here. Afaik nobody claimed that her story is unbelievable.