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I would have love to hear the debate about this back then, if there were indeed someone who was willing to advocate for the Tibetan Buddhists. I practice medita

by hosh 10y ago

I would have love to hear the debate about this back then, if there were indeed someone who was willing to advocate for the Tibetan Buddhists. I practice meditation, though not Tibetan Buddhism. I'm comfortable with both code and ceremonies of different kinds. It would have been interesting to attempt to mediate this. As an exercise, I thought, how might I have approached this. What came up in the shower was something along the lines of: This debate isn't really about a freedom of religion or tolerance, though it might seem like it. The Hackerspace has its own community, with it's own unspoken code of conduct, ethics, and values. Those values appear to be violated. I argue, though, there is a lot more in common between technologists and the Buddhists. Hackers value freedom. The freedom to create, and to tinker. There is something liberating about being able to discover surprising things about the world, and reconfigure them in clever ways. Hackers do not like technological shackles. The practice of being able change technology is an exercise in this freedom. Buddhists also value freedom -- the freedom of the mind and self. While classical Buddhists will argue up and down about the emptiness of mind, we're really talking about liberating all sentient beings from mind-made illusions. When you strip away the Mahayana (ceremonial) garments of Tibetan Buddhism, at it's core is about the liberation from the tyranny of yourself. Ever had these nagging thoughts that won't go away? Ever wonder sometimes why things seem to suck even if everything seem OK? While Buddhist meditation practices do not specifically address psychology, it cannot help overlap it. Being aware of how mind and nature of mind leads to clearly seeing yourself. In other words: these meditation practices hack the mind. How effective are they? Can you measure happiness? To what extent can technology help or hinder this? Wouldn't you want to know? There are some things that Hackers can benefit from the Buddhists, in so far as the hacking of the mind. So why would the ceremonies be uncomfortable? To this, I address the Buddhists, some things from the core doctrines: 1. Right action 2. Right speech -- make no divisive speech 3. One of the Bodhisattva attainments: to teach according to where each person is at. Can you honestly say this is Right Action and Right Speech? Is your speech really reaching the hackers? The Hackers might state that law protecting freedoms is important, but as you know, causes and conditions can distort and change understanding of this. Not everything important might be said out in the important. What is _unsaid_ may be more important. Are those deeper values being honored? If the core common value is freedom, maybe there is something the Buddhists in turn can learn from the hackers. They may want to participate, but participate in their own way. To measure what is going in the brain while someone is meditating. To record and track any benefit such practices might have. The Bodhisattva ideal has this streak of radical inclusiveness too. There's something here that might benefit both groups.

EdHominem 10y ago
It's not a religious question - the same thing would come up if you wanted to setup a large electric train set, or hold a dance class, or anything, and then refused to return the space to its original state. There are no (few) formal rules, just the weight on inconvenience. By physical necessity only one person can work with a tool at once so as long as you share nobody minds being temporarily without, but if you do something like take all the tools at once you're inconveniencing everyone and people will complain. If you box up all the tools and move them out of the room you're inconveniencing all others who'd work in that area. If there are less of you than them, or if you're doing things you could do in any other space, you'll rightly be asked to move because it inconveniences you less than the people trying to do hacky things with the tools. And leaving the space setup in your way is rude unless you're coming right back. Nobody minds if you run to the washroom but if you go to 7-11 for snacks you'll come back to find your tools in use at another station. If you go home for the night, you'll get complained to when you come back in the morning. > In other words: these meditation practices hack the mind. Sure sure, but to they need the whole room to be left unusable by other hobbies to do so? Can't they hack the mind in the corner and clean up after themselves? > The Bodhisattva ideal has this streak of radical inclusiveness too. There's something here that might benefit both groups. In the monks refusing to cleanup? "Oh, I don't do my dishes because it radically includes others in my cycle of life, peace brother." > How effective are they? Can you measure happiness? To what extent can technology help or hinder this? Wouldn't you want to know? Oh god no, just do the bloody dishes and quit trying to dodge the issue. This is all just being thrown out as some weird excuse for space-dominating actions and making the space less comfortable for everyone. When the dishes are clean, we can talk.
- hosh 10y ago
  "When the dishes are clean, we can talk." That's addressing a very different issue. May I assume you were there back then when this happened, and this was one of the issues that came up within the community?
  - EdHominem 10y ago
    I've been around NB a fair bit, but never seen the monks. > > "When the dishes are clean, we can talk." > That's addressing a very different issue. That's the generic answer to people who won't cleanup after themselves. Room setup and tool positions are a bit abstract but everyone understands dirty dishes. And everyone recognizes the type of person who always tries to play the X-card (religion in this case) to avoid cleaning up after themselves. There's always some esoteric reason why they and their activities are special, but relating it to dishes usually cuts through the special and gets to the mundane - nobody wants to pick up after you to use the space.

by hosh 10y ago

EdHominem 10y ago

It's not a religious question - the same thing would come up if you wanted to setup a large electric train set, or hold a dance class, or anything, and then refused to return the space to its original state. There are no (few) formal rules, just the weight on inconvenience. By physical necessity only one person can work with a tool at once so as long as you share nobody minds being temporarily without, but if you do something like take all the tools at once you're inconveniencing everyone and people will complain. If you box up all the tools and move them out of the room you're inconveniencing all others who'd work in that area. If there are less of you than them, or if you're doing things you could do in any other space, you'll rightly be asked to move because it inconveniences you less than the people trying to do hacky things with the tools. And leaving the space setup in your way is rude unless you're coming right back. Nobody minds if you run to the washroom but if you go to 7-11 for snacks you'll come back to find your tools in use at another station. If you go home for the night, you'll get complained to when you come back in the morning. > In other words: these meditation practices hack the mind. Sure sure, but to they need the whole room to be left unusable by other hobbies to do so? Can't they hack the mind in the corner and clean up after themselves? > The Bodhisattva ideal has this streak of radical inclusiveness too. There's something here that might benefit both groups. In the monks refusing to cleanup? "Oh, I don't do my dishes because it radically includes others in my cycle of life, peace brother." > How effective are they? Can you measure happiness? To what extent can technology help or hinder this? Wouldn't you want to know? Oh god no, just do the bloody dishes and quit trying to dodge the issue. This is all just being thrown out as some weird excuse for space-dominating actions and making the space less comfortable for everyone. When the dishes are clean, we can talk.

hosh 10y ago
"When the dishes are clean, we can talk." That's addressing a very different issue. May I assume you were there back then when this happened, and this was one of the issues that came up within the community?
- EdHominem 10y ago
  I've been around NB a fair bit, but never seen the monks. > > "When the dishes are clean, we can talk." > That's addressing a very different issue. That's the generic answer to people who won't cleanup after themselves. Room setup and tool positions are a bit abstract but everyone understands dirty dishes. And everyone recognizes the type of person who always tries to play the X-card (religion in this case) to avoid cleaning up after themselves. There's always some esoteric reason why they and their activities are special, but relating it to dishes usually cuts through the special and gets to the mundane - nobody wants to pick up after you to use the space.