8 ms·

Thank you. I obviously completely agree; we tried relentlessly to contact our local utilities to gain access to their underground conduit and was never able to

Thank you. I obviously completely agree; we tried relentlessly to contact our local utilities to gain access to their underground conduit and was never able to get someone on the phone or even much of a response. I eventually got to the point where I was like, "Fk it, I'll do it on my own." Now we're looking at microtrenching, which is probably an even larger endeavor, but at least we'll own the conduit.

shambolic 10y ago
> we tried relentlessly to contact our local utilities to gain access to their underground conduit and was never able to get someone on the phone or even much of a response. I find that really hard to believe. Go to their offices and ask for the manager. > I eventually got to the point where I was like, "Fk it, I'll do it on my own." Now we're looking at microtrenching, which is probably an even larger endeavor, but at least we'll own the conduit. Building your own facilities is no joke. Unless you are made out of money, you'll be far better off putting more effort into renting existing ducts.
- chrishacken 10y ago
  Renting duct is $3/ft/year. That's $15,840 per mile per year. That's not including ~$30,000 to contract out the work (I was quoted $7/ft) and $5,000 that the utility charges to have someone on-site to oversee the operation. I've determined we can microtrench ourselves for between $30,000 and $40,000. I've been on contact with another ISP, https://tsi.io https://tsi.io who has successfully done micro-trenching with very minimal capital. We're doing all of the work ourselves to reduce overhead.
  - shambolic 10y ago
    How do you know the duct rent if you haven't been able to contact the utility? $7/ft is more than you should be paying. Get some more competing quotes. I'd be very surprised if you can hit $30-40k per mile all in when microtrenching.
    - chrishacken 10y ago
      It's in their agreement, which is available publicly online. I managed to get 2 or 3 email responses, but they go dark for 2 months at a time. https://www.dropbox.com/s/wcd5z1itzu141ky/Screenshot%202017-02-20%2013.19.40.png?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/wcd5z1itzu141ky/Screenshot%202017-... https://www.dropbox.com/s/sbkhujxkpepadjw/Screenshot%202017-02-20%2013.20.33.png?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/sbkhujxkpepadjw/Screenshot%202017-...
      - toomuchtodo 10y ago
        You might check what the agreement between the utility and the public utility commission is to see if you can have the PUC lean on the utility to provide the data you need. http://www.puc.pa.gov/ http://www.puc.pa.gov/
        chrishacken 10y ago
        I've had several meetings with a District Rep, who contacted his government rep at the utility for the area, who leaned into them. They said they would contact me; 3 times, and never did.
        shambolic 10y ago
        What happens when you go to their offices?
  - icedchai 10y ago
    Do you actually expect to turn a profit doing this? Seems like it will never pay for itself.
  - amalag 10y ago
    That website is very cool. It will be really interesting if this catches on. There are a ton of rural customers underserved by DSL or even wireless ISPs.
nixgeek 10y ago
Perhaps try reaching out to the B4RN folks to learn some of their lessons. A lot won't apply because UK vs. US but I'm sure some of their experiences might help you avoid problems! https://b4rn.org.uk https://b4rn.org.uk
- martinald 10y ago
  Agreed 100% on the B4RN suggestion, they're doing some pretty amazing work on relatively tiny budgets.
- timthorn 10y ago
  There was a presentation at UKNOF34 from B4RN: https://youtu.be/C4Xm_-gt6mw?list=PLjzK5ZtLlc91r5YZVNiebhcq0W5aB5Zu6 https://youtu.be/C4Xm_-gt6mw?list=PLjzK5ZtLlc91r5YZVNiebhcq0...
djaychela 10y ago
>Now we're looking at microtrenching, which is probably an even larger endeavor, but at least we'll own the conduit. Hi Chris - good work, inspiring to read. I'm in Bournemouth, UK, and around 10 years ago FibreCity was a company created to attempt to connect all the houses in Bournemouth to FTTH - initially by using sewers, but eventually by microtrenching. I actually had a month's trial (1Gps, which was incredible), but the company folded, and from what I recall the costs were immensely greater than they even thought with the microtrenching; they also managed to P off nearly everyone in the area as they promised very little disruption, but actually led to no difference compared to normal trenching works. Ultimately large parts of Bournemouth now have FTTH which is dark, which is disappointing. Not trying to put you off, but just mentioning it as a study or worthwhile research - you seem like a good guy doing a good job, so hoped I could contribute something.
gigatexal 10y ago
What're your thoughts on this idea: internet access is a right and should be treated like a utility. Operators like you and others create supply and then are guaranteed a price or rate as (probably) negotiated by the consortium of suppliers like yourself and others and the local government. And then in return businesses and consumers can rely on (fiber based) internet for a reasonable cost. I personally don't care for this because given a guaranteed stream of income I think incubanants would have little incentive to innovate. I'd rather there be an open and fair market for people like you to come into an underserved market and turn things on its head and lead to innovations like wireless gigabit and other tech. Curious on your thoughts though.
- shambolic 10y ago
  The biggest problem is: where is the money going to come from? Even if you guarantee a rate of return, somebody still needs to finance the buildout. Second issue is, how will infrastructure that is installed, but not used be paid for? Take rate is rarely 100%, so who is going to pay for that part and how?
  - gigatexal 10y ago
    Governments would pay for this via taxes. At least that's one way. So in the end all of us would be paying for internet, and I guess if there were a way to get internet at 1gig up/1 gig down with no data caps that was very reliable for under 100 bucks a month I would do it. But the build-out costs a lot as you've stated so the capital would have to come from somewhere and perhaps that'd come from infrastructure spending.
    - rayiner 10y ago
      We can't convince voters to raise taxes/utility rates enough to fix crumbling dams, lead water pipes, and overflowing sewers.
      - gigatexal 10y ago
        Unfortunately I happen to agree. Until a disaster happens that the public can be convinced is linked directly to a lack of infrastructure spending I think nothing will happen.
feld 10y ago
Find out as much as you can about your city's regulations. In Madison, WI if your conduit is 3" or larger the city can take ownership of it if they want with zero compensation for the cost you spent to build it out. They will reuse it for utilities, traffic lights, etc. You can still use it, but they own it.
- shambolic 10y ago
  Jeez, that's rough. Sounds like a great recipe to drive away investment and for only installing 2" conduit to the detriment of all.
  - feld 10y ago
    This is why you get an agreement with the city to share their conduit and help each other out where possible. Not sure of the political climate there, but getting on their good side will save you money and time.
jlgaddis 10y ago
Become a CLEC. Or, more appropriately, I suppose: look into the benefits that being a CLEC would give you (in this regard) and consider if that's worth it for you.
- chrishacken 10y ago
  That's in the works.
  - shambolic 10y ago
    You don't have to be a CLEC to access right of way, including ducts and poles. It's enough to be a BIAS (Broadband Interner Access Provider), which you already are.
    - chrishacken 10y ago
      Becoming a CLEC does classify you as a "utility" though, which has other benefits.
      - shambolic 10y ago
        Which benefits do you need that a CLEC has but a BIAS does not?
rexreed 10y ago
Chris - I might have an interesting low-cost microtrenching option for you. This company demo'd at a recent TechBreakfast: http://traxyl.com/ http://traxyl.com/. I know the founders and they are very motivated to make this work for early customers. Let me know if you want a connection.
- iptrans 10y ago
  Can you hook me up too? Email in profile.
fencepost 10y ago
You might get more response if you call them and say "Hey, since we haven't heard from you we're going to be trenching in our own conduit. This is a written request for up-to-date maps of where yours is so we can be sure we don't cut anything." It might not be the response you want, but it may make it more likely that someone will respond.
- shambolic 10y ago
  They won't send any maps, they will just come out and mark their underground utilities before you dig.

shambolic 10y ago

> we tried relentlessly to contact our local utilities to gain access to their underground conduit and was never able to get someone on the phone or even much of a response. I find that really hard to believe. Go to their offices and ask for the manager. > I eventually got to the point where I was like, "Fk it, I'll do it on my own." Now we're looking at microtrenching, which is probably an even larger endeavor, but at least we'll own the conduit. Building your own facilities is no joke. Unless you are made out of money, you'll be far better off putting more effort into renting existing ducts.

chrishacken 10y ago
Renting duct is $3/ft/year. That's $15,840 per mile per year. That's not including ~$30,000 to contract out the work (I was quoted $7/ft) and $5,000 that the utility charges to have someone on-site to oversee the operation. I've determined we can microtrench ourselves for between $30,000 and $40,000. I've been on contact with another ISP, https://tsi.io https://tsi.io who has successfully done micro-trenching with very minimal capital. We're doing all of the work ourselves to reduce overhead.
- shambolic 10y ago
  How do you know the duct rent if you haven't been able to contact the utility? $7/ft is more than you should be paying. Get some more competing quotes. I'd be very surprised if you can hit $30-40k per mile all in when microtrenching.
  - chrishacken 10y ago
    It's in their agreement, which is available publicly online. I managed to get 2 or 3 email responses, but they go dark for 2 months at a time. https://www.dropbox.com/s/wcd5z1itzu141ky/Screenshot%202017-02-20%2013.19.40.png?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/wcd5z1itzu141ky/Screenshot%202017-... https://www.dropbox.com/s/sbkhujxkpepadjw/Screenshot%202017-02-20%2013.20.33.png?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/sbkhujxkpepadjw/Screenshot%202017-...
    - toomuchtodo 10y ago
      You might check what the agreement between the utility and the public utility commission is to see if you can have the PUC lean on the utility to provide the data you need. http://www.puc.pa.gov/ http://www.puc.pa.gov/
      - chrishacken 10y ago
        I've had several meetings with a District Rep, who contacted his government rep at the utility for the area, who leaned into them. They said they would contact me; 3 times, and never did.
        shambolic 10y ago
        What happens when you go to their offices?
- icedchai 10y ago
  Do you actually expect to turn a profit doing this? Seems like it will never pay for itself.
- amalag 10y ago
  That website is very cool. It will be really interesting if this catches on. There are a ton of rural customers underserved by DSL or even wireless ISPs.

nixgeek 10y ago

Perhaps try reaching out to the B4RN folks to learn some of their lessons. A lot won't apply because UK vs. US but I'm sure some of their experiences might help you avoid problems! https://b4rn.org.uk https://b4rn.org.uk

martinald 10y ago
Agreed 100% on the B4RN suggestion, they're doing some pretty amazing work on relatively tiny budgets.
timthorn 10y ago
There was a presentation at UKNOF34 from B4RN: https://youtu.be/C4Xm_-gt6mw?list=PLjzK5ZtLlc91r5YZVNiebhcq0W5aB5Zu6 https://youtu.be/C4Xm_-gt6mw?list=PLjzK5ZtLlc91r5YZVNiebhcq0...

djaychela 10y ago

>Now we're looking at microtrenching, which is probably an even larger endeavor, but at least we'll own the conduit. Hi Chris - good work, inspiring to read. I'm in Bournemouth, UK, and around 10 years ago FibreCity was a company created to attempt to connect all the houses in Bournemouth to FTTH - initially by using sewers, but eventually by microtrenching. I actually had a month's trial (1Gps, which was incredible), but the company folded, and from what I recall the costs were immensely greater than they even thought with the microtrenching; they also managed to P off nearly everyone in the area as they promised very little disruption, but actually led to no difference compared to normal trenching works. Ultimately large parts of Bournemouth now have FTTH which is dark, which is disappointing. Not trying to put you off, but just mentioning it as a study or worthwhile research - you seem like a good guy doing a good job, so hoped I could contribute something.

gigatexal 10y ago

What're your thoughts on this idea: internet access is a right and should be treated like a utility. Operators like you and others create supply and then are guaranteed a price or rate as (probably) negotiated by the consortium of suppliers like yourself and others and the local government. And then in return businesses and consumers can rely on (fiber based) internet for a reasonable cost. I personally don't care for this because given a guaranteed stream of income I think incubanants would have little incentive to innovate. I'd rather there be an open and fair market for people like you to come into an underserved market and turn things on its head and lead to innovations like wireless gigabit and other tech. Curious on your thoughts though.

shambolic 10y ago
The biggest problem is: where is the money going to come from? Even if you guarantee a rate of return, somebody still needs to finance the buildout. Second issue is, how will infrastructure that is installed, but not used be paid for? Take rate is rarely 100%, so who is going to pay for that part and how?
- gigatexal 10y ago
  Governments would pay for this via taxes. At least that's one way. So in the end all of us would be paying for internet, and I guess if there were a way to get internet at 1gig up/1 gig down with no data caps that was very reliable for under 100 bucks a month I would do it. But the build-out costs a lot as you've stated so the capital would have to come from somewhere and perhaps that'd come from infrastructure spending.
  - rayiner 10y ago
    We can't convince voters to raise taxes/utility rates enough to fix crumbling dams, lead water pipes, and overflowing sewers.
    - gigatexal 10y ago
      Unfortunately I happen to agree. Until a disaster happens that the public can be convinced is linked directly to a lack of infrastructure spending I think nothing will happen.

feld 10y ago

Find out as much as you can about your city's regulations. In Madison, WI if your conduit is 3" or larger the city can take ownership of it if they want with zero compensation for the cost you spent to build it out. They will reuse it for utilities, traffic lights, etc. You can still use it, but they own it.

shambolic 10y ago
Jeez, that's rough. Sounds like a great recipe to drive away investment and for only installing 2" conduit to the detriment of all.
- feld 10y ago
  This is why you get an agreement with the city to share their conduit and help each other out where possible. Not sure of the political climate there, but getting on their good side will save you money and time.

jlgaddis 10y ago

Become a CLEC. Or, more appropriately, I suppose: look into the benefits that being a CLEC would give you (in this regard) and consider if that's worth it for you.

chrishacken 10y ago
That's in the works.
- shambolic 10y ago
  You don't have to be a CLEC to access right of way, including ducts and poles. It's enough to be a BIAS (Broadband Interner Access Provider), which you already are.
  - chrishacken 10y ago
    Becoming a CLEC does classify you as a "utility" though, which has other benefits.
    - shambolic 10y ago
      Which benefits do you need that a CLEC has but a BIAS does not?

rexreed 10y ago

Chris - I might have an interesting low-cost microtrenching option for you. This company demo'd at a recent TechBreakfast: http://traxyl.com/ http://traxyl.com/. I know the founders and they are very motivated to make this work for early customers. Let me know if you want a connection.

iptrans 10y ago
Can you hook me up too? Email in profile.

fencepost 10y ago

You might get more response if you call them and say "Hey, since we haven't heard from you we're going to be trenching in our own conduit. This is a written request for up-to-date maps of where yours is so we can be sure we don't cut anything." It might not be the response you want, but it may make it more likely that someone will respond.

shambolic 10y ago
They won't send any maps, they will just come out and mark their underground utilities before you dig.