4 ms·

Not the example you requested, but the threat of it, from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Swartz#Arrest_and_prosecution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron

Not the example you requested, but the threat of it, from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Swartz#Arrest_and_prosecution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Swartz#Arrest_and_prosec... > federal prosecutors filed a superseding indictment adding nine more felony counts, which increased Swartz's maximum criminal exposure to 50 years of imprisonment and $1 million in fines.[13][101][102] During plea negotiations with Swartz's attorneys, the prosecutors offered to recommend a sentence of six months in a low-security prison, if Swartz would plead guilty to 13 federal crimes.

ubernostrum 10y ago
You want to read some of Popehat's articles on sentencing guidelines. Here's one that walks through the process: https://www.popehat.com/2013/03/26/cloudy-with-a-chance-of-shitty-journalism/ https://www.popehat.com/2013/03/26/cloudy-with-a-chance-of-s... Here's another, more hyperbolic one, showing how a claimed "facing 67 years" turns out to be more like "facing 24 months, and probably less than that": https://www.popehat.com/2013/02/05/crime-whale-sushi-sentence-eleventy-million-years/ https://www.popehat.com/2013/02/05/crime-whale-sushi-sentenc... But the short version is that describing a criminal case as "facing up to 50 years" is like describing a lottery ticket as "worth up to 50 million dollars", and you should probably believe both statements about equally until the sentencing happens (for the criminal case) or the winning numbers are drawn (for the lottery ticket).
- EdHominem 10y ago
  It can be 67 years at the whim of the DA. The maximum punishment is very real and they're just itching to use it. If it was an unbiased roll of the dice that would be one thing, and the average and the distribution would be meaningful. But when it's arbitrary it doesn't matter what anyone else got, only what you'll get. And if you have any complaints about your treatment, etc, you're immediately in the full-penalty group.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - ubernostrum 10y ago
    It can be 67 years at the whim of the DA. Everything I've read says the judge is the one who applies the sentencing guidelines. Prosecuting attorneys don't sentence people, as far as I'm aware.
    - EdHominem 10y ago
      The DA is the one who offers you a plea bargain, or not, and decides how many counts they charge you with. And recommends charges. But yeah, after that it's all the judge.
      - ubernostrum 10y ago
        So what happens when someone who's actually informed about sentencing guidelines tells a DA they don't believe the whole "if you don't plead you're facing ten million years in prison" thing?
        EdHominem 10y ago
        You're the one who thinks you're informed, and that a judge would overrule the DA if they got out of hand, so I suggest you go find out. I'm pretty much in the camp that the DA would fuck you up and the police and judge would all be in on it. Try telling a cop what the law is, especially if you're right...
- phil21 10y ago
  The difference is the price of that lottery ticket isn't $2, it's your remaining life. As you would expect most don't take that gamble.
  - greeneggs 10y ago
    Really, I was just wondering if there were any examples of Americans being sentenced to decades in prison for copyright infringement. It sounds like the answer is no (?). Also, I assume the multiple counts issue also applies to Germany and other countries, so the US penalties aren't necessarily that much worse. (Well, 10 years is much worse than 5 years, but it isn't decades worse.)
    - germanier 10y ago
      The German legal system does not simply do multiples. Assuming everything is judged together at a trial the process is roughly as follows: First it is checked whether everything was done in a single criminal act (which is defined pretty broadly)[1]. In that case, it is just one crime with one maximum. If not, the sentence is usually much less than the sum of single sentences would be (rule of thumb is "offense with maximal punishment + 1/2 sum of the rest" but can be even less). Everything is capped at 15 years unless there was a crime demanding lifelong imprisonment. If there are seperate trials (even for totally seperate crimes), the sentences are also combined as per above at the later trial (unless the former sentence was already executed). As far as I know this is not unusual worldwide. Certainly other European countries use a similar system. [1]: Wikipedia tells me that the US system doesn't ask that question at all. I know absolutely nothing about copyright cases in particular but e.g. starting a filesharing client that distributes many files to many people is still a single criminal act in Germany (civil law is different of course).

ubernostrum 10y ago

You want to read some of Popehat's articles on sentencing guidelines. Here's one that walks through the process: https://www.popehat.com/2013/03/26/cloudy-with-a-chance-of-shitty-journalism/ https://www.popehat.com/2013/03/26/cloudy-with-a-chance-of-s... Here's another, more hyperbolic one, showing how a claimed "facing 67 years" turns out to be more like "facing 24 months, and probably less than that": https://www.popehat.com/2013/02/05/crime-whale-sushi-sentence-eleventy-million-years/ https://www.popehat.com/2013/02/05/crime-whale-sushi-sentenc... But the short version is that describing a criminal case as "facing up to 50 years" is like describing a lottery ticket as "worth up to 50 million dollars", and you should probably believe both statements about equally until the sentencing happens (for the criminal case) or the winning numbers are drawn (for the lottery ticket).

EdHominem 10y ago
It can be 67 years at the whim of the DA. The maximum punishment is very real and they're just itching to use it. If it was an unbiased roll of the dice that would be one thing, and the average and the distribution would be meaningful. But when it's arbitrary it doesn't matter what anyone else got, only what you'll get. And if you have any complaints about your treatment, etc, you're immediately in the full-penalty group.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- ubernostrum 10y ago
  It can be 67 years at the whim of the DA. Everything I've read says the judge is the one who applies the sentencing guidelines. Prosecuting attorneys don't sentence people, as far as I'm aware.
  - EdHominem 10y ago
    The DA is the one who offers you a plea bargain, or not, and decides how many counts they charge you with. And recommends charges. But yeah, after that it's all the judge.
    - ubernostrum 10y ago
      So what happens when someone who's actually informed about sentencing guidelines tells a DA they don't believe the whole "if you don't plead you're facing ten million years in prison" thing?
      - EdHominem 10y ago
        You're the one who thinks you're informed, and that a judge would overrule the DA if they got out of hand, so I suggest you go find out. I'm pretty much in the camp that the DA would fuck you up and the police and judge would all be in on it. Try telling a cop what the law is, especially if you're right...
phil21 10y ago
The difference is the price of that lottery ticket isn't $2, it's your remaining life. As you would expect most don't take that gamble.
- greeneggs 10y ago
  Really, I was just wondering if there were any examples of Americans being sentenced to decades in prison for copyright infringement. It sounds like the answer is no (?). Also, I assume the multiple counts issue also applies to Germany and other countries, so the US penalties aren't necessarily that much worse. (Well, 10 years is much worse than 5 years, but it isn't decades worse.)
  - germanier 10y ago
    The German legal system does not simply do multiples. Assuming everything is judged together at a trial the process is roughly as follows: First it is checked whether everything was done in a single criminal act (which is defined pretty broadly)[1]. In that case, it is just one crime with one maximum. If not, the sentence is usually much less than the sum of single sentences would be (rule of thumb is "offense with maximal punishment + 1/2 sum of the rest" but can be even less). Everything is capped at 15 years unless there was a crime demanding lifelong imprisonment. If there are seperate trials (even for totally seperate crimes), the sentences are also combined as per above at the later trial (unless the former sentence was already executed). As far as I know this is not unusual worldwide. Certainly other European countries use a similar system. [1]: Wikipedia tells me that the US system doesn't ask that question at all. I know absolutely nothing about copyright cases in particular but e.g. starting a filesharing client that distributes many files to many people is still a single criminal act in Germany (civil law is different of course).