5 ms·

New Zealand law has a principle known as natural justice. It's a term that refers to the right to a trial that is fair when considered in totality, and the righ

by wbhart 10y ago

New Zealand law has a principle known as natural justice. It's a term that refers to the right to a trial that is fair when considered in totality, and the right to have a judge that is not biased. It was argued by Dotcom's team and the legal team of his coaccused that the District court judge had hurried the trial so much that there was no opportunity to even present a case. He wasn't allowed to present expert testimony on the commonplace practice of using deduplication in filesharing technology, or expert testimony on US law, etc. The question came up in the trial that if natural justice had been so badly denied, then it wasn't clear how the problem could be rectified. Evidence came to light during the trial before this judge that largely discredited the Crown case, but wasn't properly before the judge (wasn't allowed to be considered), further compounding the problem the case presented. The Crown Prosecution Service of course argued that Dotcom and co would have the opportunity to present such evidence in the US after being extradited.

wallace_f 10y ago
Your points reveal the nature of NZ how I found it after living there. It is a nation of well-mannered, and sometimes incredibly friend people, yet with far-more-corrupt-than-you-would-imagine institutions. They have the highest per-capita War on Drugs in the world that includes selectively-enforced laws and no progress on the harmful impact to society of drug abuse. Yet with all that money spent on law enforcement, one at a hostel who was mugged could not even get police to investigate the crime. NZ ranked as the #1 least corrupt place in the world is some major bullshit. They have government-sanctioned monopolies in everything from office property to ski resorts. Telecom industry is even more of a joke than Australia or US. Nowhere else in the Western world have I seen such a disgusting display of sex workers as I did in NZ. Of people mugged and beaten up for no reason. Of overt racism. However, there's also some of the nicest people in the world there, and it is a beautiful country. Anyways, Kim Dotcom's case just adds to the list of bullshit to what should otherwise be a utopia.
- kefka 10y ago
  > NZ ranked as the #1 least corrupt place in the world is some major bullshit. Or that the ratings are so corrupted to portray this place as a bastion of corruptlessness.
- cylinder 10y ago
  >They have government-sanctioned monopolies in everything from office property to ski resorts. Telecom industry is even more of a joke than Australia or US. TIL resisting neoliberal market ideology = corruption. Why is this hard to understand? A tiny nation cannot rely on private capital to establish massive projects like national telecom or even office buildings. So people band together through government to do it. Sorry that government ownership of anything but a global war machine seems to offend you.
  - abiox 10y ago
    (Not being familiar with New Zealand myself) my impression was that they were referring to govt accepting or accommodating private monopolies.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - wallace_f 10y ago
    We apparently just disagree about what I am assuming to be a right: People to have just and fair competition in a law-abiding marketplace. In a marketplace, people get to choose with their dollars which goods and services they want the most. In socialist or an authoritarian regimes, a government decides for you what you need, who gets it, who gets the profits, but they make you pay for it. Whether they use their citizens wealth to produce Wars on Drugs, ski resorts or office buildings is up to them. While I'd rather they produce ski resorts or office buildings, the idea that a government needs to intervene in order to develop any of those is ridiculous. >Sorry that government ownership of anything but a global war machine seems to offend you. That is not fair, and it's insulting. Nowhere did I say I support war.
    - cylinder 10y ago
      I don't even follow what you're talking about. There are three telecom networks in NZ, the government owned one was privatized long ago and is publicly listed. There are private ski resort companies. In a lot of ways, Australia and NZ have gone far deeper into the neoliberal privatization rabbit hole than the US. NY airports run by the Port Authority isn't corruption? NY has government run ski resorts too. And either way, socialism != corruption. You may not like it, but that doesn't mean it's corruption.
- pixel_fcker 10y ago
  > Nowhere else in the Western world have I seen such a disgusting display of sex workers as I did in NZ. Prostitution is legal in New Zealand since 2003. That legalization is generally considered to be progressive and to have had a positive outcome on the health and safety of workers in the sex trade.
- lacampbell 10y ago
  I'm a New Zealander and you are sbsolutely correct, unfortunately. By first world standards there is a lot of street violence here and police have zero interest it. If you deliver the case to them gift-wrapped - names, witness statements - they still have zero chance of being given so much as a slap on the wrist if it's their first offense. If you ride a bicycle without a helmet though they will throw the book at you. The low corruption rating thing has always puzzled me as well. I suppose it's that behaviour that's usually considered a result of corruption is in-fact documented, transparent, follows the law, or is a matter of policy. Which doesn't change how harmful it is. I often see Americans here with unrealistic views of this place. Median house prices are 6 times the average household income - in Auckland it's 10 times - and things like double-glazing or insulation are considered luxuries. If you have a burning need to ski and visit a beach in the same day and aren't willing to learn a language other than English then I guess NZ is a good destination for a first world immigrant. But if not, it's totally not worth it. Almost every New Zealander with marketable skills gets out so they can earn more and spend less somewhere else.
  - djsumdog 10y ago
    It's sad because NZ was originally on the track to be a socialistic paradise. At one time University was very low cost; almost free. Today student loans never gain interest .. until you leave the country for more than six months (NZ is trying to prevent losing talent with people moving to Australia). AirNZ was once owned by the government. Many of the power companies were as well, until the John Key asset sales. Even before asset sales, NZ paid some of the highest rates in the world for electricity. ($200/month single occupancy power bills were not uncommon). Wellington was the only city I lived in where someone broke into my house. Break-ins around x-mas are pretty common - lot of theft and people buying presents off TradeMe. It's still an amazing country, great affordable health care and wonderful people. Software patents are banned in NZ, which is another huge plus. However a lot of the corruption is getting worse and the GCSB is allowed to spy on all its citizens now.
    - wallace_f 10y ago
      >GCSB is allowed to spy on all its citizens now. Here's a story of a bungled spy operation on a pro-democracy activist who is a citizen of NZ that was targeted and betrayed by his own country.(1) It is really a disgusting use of taxpayer dollars and invasion of privacy. Nothing good comes out of that. It makes you wonder how many cases out there that there are which never make it to the media. Or what happens which can never be proven. https://theintercept.com/2016/08/14/nsa-gcsb-prism-surveillance-fullman-fiji/ https://theintercept.com/2016/08/14/nsa-gcsb-prism-surveilla...
- xupybd 10y ago
  I find your morality interesting. You find Government ownership in private industry offensive, sex workers offensive, and appear to be pro drug legalisation. In my experience this is an unusual combination. Neither classically conservative or liberal. (Not trying to pass judgement, just expressing surprise) I live in NZ, and I know there are some drawbacks to the way things are done here but don't think 'government-sanctioned monopolies' are a sign of corruption. We are a small Island nation there are somethings that simply don't have sufficient markets to compete in. For example our Rail. I'm guessing your complaint has more to do with a personal and unpleasant experience in a ski resort here? I find the telecom industry here to be fine. I have unlimited 100meg(up and down) fibre to my home and office (with gigabit due soon). My cellphone charges are reasonable. I don't know what more I'd want? I'd be interested in where you are sourcing the information on "highest per-capita War on Drugs". EDIT http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/89642386/they-were-willing-to-risk-it-but-the-steaks-were-high-wins-cowcannabis-caption-compitition http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/89642386/they-were-wil... <- this is more typical of our drug policy. And your report of the police not investigating a crime, suggests to me there is more to the story. Many petty crimes get little police attention and go unsolved but I'd be shocked if one couldn't even be reported. "Overt racism" is bad at the moment, there is a growing anti Asian sentiment, that needs to stop. We also have some issues at the moment with "Freedom campers", basically tourists that live in camper vans without showers and toilets. We simply don't have the facilities to handle them at present. So there are reports of human waste clogging car parks. Not ideal and this needs to be solved. Unfortunately this has lead some in small towns to be very hostile towards foreigners. I don't think our mugging rate is very high compared to most countries around the world.
- ElCapitanMarkla 10y ago
  I just want to comment on the telecoms thing, a few years ago I would have totally agreed with you but recently things have picked up here. (All prices in NZD) I left in NZ in 2011 where I had ADSL2 with a 60GB cap at about $100 a month. Came back in 2013 where the best I could get was ADSL2 capped at 90GB for $100 a month. VDSL was around and reasonably priced but wasn't widely available. Within a year my plan moved to uncapped which also became the standard for everyone, and within a year of that I had uncapped Gigabit fibre for under $90 a month. And fibre is rolling out around the country at very reasonable prices. Mobiles slowly coming down getting closer to the cheap UK pricing, $30 a month can get you unlimited calling/texting and 3GB or so. Data is still the real killer here where I was on a £16 a month unlimited 3g plan in the UK.

by wbhart 10y ago

wallace_f 10y ago

Your points reveal the nature of NZ how I found it after living there. It is a nation of well-mannered, and sometimes incredibly friend people, yet with far-more-corrupt-than-you-would-imagine institutions. They have the highest per-capita War on Drugs in the world that includes selectively-enforced laws and no progress on the harmful impact to society of drug abuse. Yet with all that money spent on law enforcement, one at a hostel who was mugged could not even get police to investigate the crime. NZ ranked as the #1 least corrupt place in the world is some major bullshit. They have government-sanctioned monopolies in everything from office property to ski resorts. Telecom industry is even more of a joke than Australia or US. Nowhere else in the Western world have I seen such a disgusting display of sex workers as I did in NZ. Of people mugged and beaten up for no reason. Of overt racism. However, there's also some of the nicest people in the world there, and it is a beautiful country. Anyways, Kim Dotcom's case just adds to the list of bullshit to what should otherwise be a utopia.

kefka 10y ago
> NZ ranked as the #1 least corrupt place in the world is some major bullshit. Or that the ratings are so corrupted to portray this place as a bastion of corruptlessness.
cylinder 10y ago
>They have government-sanctioned monopolies in everything from office property to ski resorts. Telecom industry is even more of a joke than Australia or US. TIL resisting neoliberal market ideology = corruption. Why is this hard to understand? A tiny nation cannot rely on private capital to establish massive projects like national telecom or even office buildings. So people band together through government to do it. Sorry that government ownership of anything but a global war machine seems to offend you.
- abiox 10y ago
  (Not being familiar with New Zealand myself) my impression was that they were referring to govt accepting or accommodating private monopolies.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- wallace_f 10y ago
  We apparently just disagree about what I am assuming to be a right: People to have just and fair competition in a law-abiding marketplace. In a marketplace, people get to choose with their dollars which goods and services they want the most. In socialist or an authoritarian regimes, a government decides for you what you need, who gets it, who gets the profits, but they make you pay for it. Whether they use their citizens wealth to produce Wars on Drugs, ski resorts or office buildings is up to them. While I'd rather they produce ski resorts or office buildings, the idea that a government needs to intervene in order to develop any of those is ridiculous. >Sorry that government ownership of anything but a global war machine seems to offend you. That is not fair, and it's insulting. Nowhere did I say I support war.
  - cylinder 10y ago
    I don't even follow what you're talking about. There are three telecom networks in NZ, the government owned one was privatized long ago and is publicly listed. There are private ski resort companies. In a lot of ways, Australia and NZ have gone far deeper into the neoliberal privatization rabbit hole than the US. NY airports run by the Port Authority isn't corruption? NY has government run ski resorts too. And either way, socialism != corruption. You may not like it, but that doesn't mean it's corruption.
pixel_fcker 10y ago
> Nowhere else in the Western world have I seen such a disgusting display of sex workers as I did in NZ. Prostitution is legal in New Zealand since 2003. That legalization is generally considered to be progressive and to have had a positive outcome on the health and safety of workers in the sex trade.
lacampbell 10y ago
I'm a New Zealander and you are sbsolutely correct, unfortunately. By first world standards there is a lot of street violence here and police have zero interest it. If you deliver the case to them gift-wrapped - names, witness statements - they still have zero chance of being given so much as a slap on the wrist if it's their first offense. If you ride a bicycle without a helmet though they will throw the book at you. The low corruption rating thing has always puzzled me as well. I suppose it's that behaviour that's usually considered a result of corruption is in-fact documented, transparent, follows the law, or is a matter of policy. Which doesn't change how harmful it is. I often see Americans here with unrealistic views of this place. Median house prices are 6 times the average household income - in Auckland it's 10 times - and things like double-glazing or insulation are considered luxuries. If you have a burning need to ski and visit a beach in the same day and aren't willing to learn a language other than English then I guess NZ is a good destination for a first world immigrant. But if not, it's totally not worth it. Almost every New Zealander with marketable skills gets out so they can earn more and spend less somewhere else.
- djsumdog 10y ago
  It's sad because NZ was originally on the track to be a socialistic paradise. At one time University was very low cost; almost free. Today student loans never gain interest .. until you leave the country for more than six months (NZ is trying to prevent losing talent with people moving to Australia). AirNZ was once owned by the government. Many of the power companies were as well, until the John Key asset sales. Even before asset sales, NZ paid some of the highest rates in the world for electricity. ($200/month single occupancy power bills were not uncommon). Wellington was the only city I lived in where someone broke into my house. Break-ins around x-mas are pretty common - lot of theft and people buying presents off TradeMe. It's still an amazing country, great affordable health care and wonderful people. Software patents are banned in NZ, which is another huge plus. However a lot of the corruption is getting worse and the GCSB is allowed to spy on all its citizens now.
  - wallace_f 10y ago
    >GCSB is allowed to spy on all its citizens now. Here's a story of a bungled spy operation on a pro-democracy activist who is a citizen of NZ that was targeted and betrayed by his own country.(1) It is really a disgusting use of taxpayer dollars and invasion of privacy. Nothing good comes out of that. It makes you wonder how many cases out there that there are which never make it to the media. Or what happens which can never be proven. https://theintercept.com/2016/08/14/nsa-gcsb-prism-surveillance-fullman-fiji/ https://theintercept.com/2016/08/14/nsa-gcsb-prism-surveilla...
xupybd 10y ago
I find your morality interesting. You find Government ownership in private industry offensive, sex workers offensive, and appear to be pro drug legalisation. In my experience this is an unusual combination. Neither classically conservative or liberal. (Not trying to pass judgement, just expressing surprise) I live in NZ, and I know there are some drawbacks to the way things are done here but don't think 'government-sanctioned monopolies' are a sign of corruption. We are a small Island nation there are somethings that simply don't have sufficient markets to compete in. For example our Rail. I'm guessing your complaint has more to do with a personal and unpleasant experience in a ski resort here? I find the telecom industry here to be fine. I have unlimited 100meg(up and down) fibre to my home and office (with gigabit due soon). My cellphone charges are reasonable. I don't know what more I'd want? I'd be interested in where you are sourcing the information on "highest per-capita War on Drugs". EDIT http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/89642386/they-were-willing-to-risk-it-but-the-steaks-were-high-wins-cowcannabis-caption-compitition http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/89642386/they-were-wil... <- this is more typical of our drug policy. And your report of the police not investigating a crime, suggests to me there is more to the story. Many petty crimes get little police attention and go unsolved but I'd be shocked if one couldn't even be reported. "Overt racism" is bad at the moment, there is a growing anti Asian sentiment, that needs to stop. We also have some issues at the moment with "Freedom campers", basically tourists that live in camper vans without showers and toilets. We simply don't have the facilities to handle them at present. So there are reports of human waste clogging car parks. Not ideal and this needs to be solved. Unfortunately this has lead some in small towns to be very hostile towards foreigners. I don't think our mugging rate is very high compared to most countries around the world.
ElCapitanMarkla 10y ago
I just want to comment on the telecoms thing, a few years ago I would have totally agreed with you but recently things have picked up here. (All prices in NZD) I left in NZ in 2011 where I had ADSL2 with a 60GB cap at about $100 a month. Came back in 2013 where the best I could get was ADSL2 capped at 90GB for $100 a month. VDSL was around and reasonably priced but wasn't widely available. Within a year my plan moved to uncapped which also became the standard for everyone, and within a year of that I had uncapped Gigabit fibre for under $90 a month. And fibre is rolling out around the country at very reasonable prices. Mobiles slowly coming down getting closer to the cheap UK pricing, $30 a month can get you unlimited calling/texting and 3GB or so. Data is still the real killer here where I was on a £16 a month unlimited 3g plan in the UK.