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Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue. > Treason is the alternative? Correct. It is the rational and moral

Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue. > Treason is the alternative? Correct. It is the rational and moral choice. Just as you must defy the orders of your superior officer if ordered to commit war crimes prohibited by the Geneva Convention, so must you defy the President to preserve the aims of liberty and equality expressed in the US Constitution.

microcolonel 10y ago
Sure, but that's not the situation we're dealing with. No war crimes are being ordered, in fact, it doesn't seem anything is being ordered at all. They're just betraying their superiours for ??? private reason. Whose liberty are they defending?
pessimizer 10y ago
Intelligence agencies attacking a democratically elected head of state is no defense of liberty. You're attributing noble motives to people just because they're doing what you want them to do.
- int_19h 10y ago
  It all depends on what said democratically elected head of state is trying to do, and what they're trying to prevent him from doing. Being democratically elected does not give an automatic grant of immunity to legal and, more importantly, moral limits on one's actions. And you're correct that we don't know the motives of those people. Just as OP doesn't know that they aren't noble, you also don't know that they aren't.
  - jessaustin 10y ago
    Good grief dude, turn off the TV for a couple of days. The Trump has been president for like a month, and literally nothing has happened. Unless you have a burning desire for war in Syria and Russia, why would you strain to find noble intentions in intelligence agencies, of all places?
    - Elrac 10y ago
      Literally nothing has happened? * Within the first week of his Presidency, a de facto Chinese government press organ threatened military action against the USA. * Legal US residents were detained and turned back at US borders, as a result of an executive order of questionable constitutionality. * Trump has challenged the legitimacy of US courts and judges, and threatened to remove them from power. * Trump has declared all the country's major news agencies as enemies of the people. Maybe you have trouble understanding just how serious an accusation that is. * Having been threatened with a 20% import tax and after the scrapping of the TPP, Mexico as one of the US' major trade partners is scrambling to improve its trade relations with China and other countries that are not the US. * Trump has fired one of his advisors over allegations of treason he called fake. Whatever the truth is, Trump put himself in the wrong in this matter. That's an astonishing set of mis-achievements for just a month in office.
      - jessaustin 10y ago
        Within the first week of his Presidency, a de facto Chinese government press organ threatened military action against the USA. Bluffers gonna bluff. What're they gonna do, invade Taiwan over a phone call? Maybe start a nuclear war? Trump's complete non-reaction to these goofy empty threats was one of the few unambiguously correct foreign policy moves he's made so far. Call back when you have a real navy. Legal US residents were detained and turned back at US borders, as a result of an executive order of questionable constitutionality. Presidents have been trampling on our rights for decades at least. Obama was particularly fond of extrajudicial assassination by drone, and it appears Trump completely agrees, but I haven't seen any protests about that. Happily, this overreach was overruled in a matter of days. Trump has challenged the legitimacy of US courts and judges, and threatened to remove them from power. Like FDR did, right? Except he actually did more than, you know, threaten... Trump has declared all the country's major news agencies as enemies of the people. Maybe you have trouble understanding just how serious an accusation that is. Is that a direct quote? I do have that trouble, along with anyone else who has observed these "major news agencies" for more than a minute. They only care about eyeballs, and they will say anything to attract those eyeballs. Criticizing them is not an attack on the First Amendment, but rather an exercise of it. Having been threatened with a 20% import tax and after the scrapping of the TPP, Mexico as one of the US' major trade partners is scrambling to improve its trade relations with China and other countries that are not the US. Elections have consequences, but those consequences have yet to occur. Threats and scrambles have no short-term effects. In the long term, they might cause some supply chain modifications, but we ain't there yet. Trump has fired one of his advisors over allegations of treason he called fake. Whatever the truth is, Trump put himself in the wrong in this matter. Hiring-and-immediately-firing could be a definition of "nothing happening".

microcolonel 10y ago

Sure, but that's not the situation we're dealing with. No war crimes are being ordered, in fact, it doesn't seem anything is being ordered at all. They're just betraying their superiours for ??? private reason. Whose liberty are they defending?

pessimizer 10y ago

Intelligence agencies attacking a democratically elected head of state is no defense of liberty. You're attributing noble motives to people just because they're doing what you want them to do.

int_19h 10y ago
It all depends on what said democratically elected head of state is trying to do, and what they're trying to prevent him from doing. Being democratically elected does not give an automatic grant of immunity to legal and, more importantly, moral limits on one's actions. And you're correct that we don't know the motives of those people. Just as OP doesn't know that they aren't noble, you also don't know that they aren't.
- jessaustin 10y ago
  Good grief dude, turn off the TV for a couple of days. The Trump has been president for like a month, and literally nothing has happened. Unless you have a burning desire for war in Syria and Russia, why would you strain to find noble intentions in intelligence agencies, of all places?
  - Elrac 10y ago
    Literally nothing has happened? * Within the first week of his Presidency, a de facto Chinese government press organ threatened military action against the USA. * Legal US residents were detained and turned back at US borders, as a result of an executive order of questionable constitutionality. * Trump has challenged the legitimacy of US courts and judges, and threatened to remove them from power. * Trump has declared all the country's major news agencies as enemies of the people. Maybe you have trouble understanding just how serious an accusation that is. * Having been threatened with a 20% import tax and after the scrapping of the TPP, Mexico as one of the US' major trade partners is scrambling to improve its trade relations with China and other countries that are not the US. * Trump has fired one of his advisors over allegations of treason he called fake. Whatever the truth is, Trump put himself in the wrong in this matter. That's an astonishing set of mis-achievements for just a month in office.
    - jessaustin 10y ago
      Within the first week of his Presidency, a de facto Chinese government press organ threatened military action against the USA. Bluffers gonna bluff. What're they gonna do, invade Taiwan over a phone call? Maybe start a nuclear war? Trump's complete non-reaction to these goofy empty threats was one of the few unambiguously correct foreign policy moves he's made so far. Call back when you have a real navy. Legal US residents were detained and turned back at US borders, as a result of an executive order of questionable constitutionality. Presidents have been trampling on our rights for decades at least. Obama was particularly fond of extrajudicial assassination by drone, and it appears Trump completely agrees, but I haven't seen any protests about that. Happily, this overreach was overruled in a matter of days. Trump has challenged the legitimacy of US courts and judges, and threatened to remove them from power. Like FDR did, right? Except he actually did more than, you know, threaten... Trump has declared all the country's major news agencies as enemies of the people. Maybe you have trouble understanding just how serious an accusation that is. Is that a direct quote? I do have that trouble, along with anyone else who has observed these "major news agencies" for more than a minute. They only care about eyeballs, and they will say anything to attract those eyeballs. Criticizing them is not an attack on the First Amendment, but rather an exercise of it. Having been threatened with a 20% import tax and after the scrapping of the TPP, Mexico as one of the US' major trade partners is scrambling to improve its trade relations with China and other countries that are not the US. Elections have consequences, but those consequences have yet to occur. Threats and scrambles have no short-term effects. In the long term, they might cause some supply chain modifications, but we ain't there yet. Trump has fired one of his advisors over allegations of treason he called fake. Whatever the truth is, Trump put himself in the wrong in this matter. Hiring-and-immediately-firing could be a definition of "nothing happening".